BtVS issue 11spoilery specs

[moscow_watcher]

I finally read issue 11. Don't have ideas for a review, but here are some spoilery speculations.

1. Twilight's identity.

He's somebody we know. Story-wise, there is no need to hide a face and to change a voice (I was told that "funny" font he uses means he distorts his voice) unless you're afraid to be recognized.

Who is he? So far the prime suspects are Caleb and Riley.

Arguments for Caleb:

-- he's been shown twice in the comics (in this issue and in Buffy's dreamspace in issue 3)
-- he knows "Buffy's move" when she tries to use the technique she used to kill Caleb
-- Caleb is a preacher and Buffy/Twilight fight is heavy with church props and there is even a direct reference (Buffy: "Church me")

Arguments against Caleb:

-- I find it hard to imagine him aknowledging that "one girl was OK"

-- Twilight's cool boots are his trademark feature and Caleb wore shoes in season 7



Arguments for Riley

-- Although he isn't mentioned by name, there is a lot of indirect Riley presence in this issue. Twilight's arrival is forestalled with Buffy recalling her dream in Restless (Buffy to Satsu: "You look like me in a dream I had one time")




RILEY: (offscreen) Thought you were looking for your friends. Okay, killer... if that's the way you want it. I guess you're on your own. (Walks off.)

-- later Buffy mentions Riley among "people who died" - - "they start letting vamps suck on 'em and they leave"

-- Joss has promised Riley's return

Arguments against Riley

-- character-wise, it doesn't make sense (then again does Buffy robbing banks make sense?)

2. Mole identity.

I can't see anybody but Renee as a mole.

Story-wise, it's very Jossian. Renee as a traitor will provide Xander with a heartbreak big enough to satisfy Joss.

Character-wise, it doesn't add up: she sounds very sweet and sincerely in love with Xander. But I can't help remembering Knox on Joss-penned AtS episode A Hole in the World. He also was sweet and sounded sincere in his love for Fred. Joss even included him in a powershot of the characters going with the mission of saving Fred. And several scenes later a slip of tongue betrayed him as a man who killed her. Typical Joss.

So - any ideas?

Comments

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

In tax terms however Angel is regressive and Buffy progressive - taking from people according to their ability to pay rather than exploiting their desperation. However I suspect lusciousxander was specifying S2 not S1 Angel because the point was that it's perfectly possible to sympathsise with someone doing something you believe to be wrong (like locking a bunch of human lawyers in a room with two psychotic, hungry vampires).

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman, I'm sure if Spike were to rob a bank he wouldn't provoke quite such a moralising response. Alternatively if Buffy's main/only function in the story is to inspire goodness in the fallen, whether Spike, Faith or Angel, I could see how she might be judged harshly by fans of those characters.

[elisi]

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman
Possibly, but that is not *my* problem. I just don't think it's in character for her. If it were Willow f.ex. I'd not bat an eyelid. (And I thoroughly enjoyed stormwreath's fic where Willow *did* rob a bank!)

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Ironically, Willow was upset with Buffy about what she had done.

I don't think Buffy did it for the thrill (like when she robbed in S3 with Faith), I think she had all these girls depending on her, and felt it was necessarily that she had to get them a place to hide filled with weapons and armors to protect them. She felt guilty about it, especially when Willow knew and was upset with her. S8 Buffy is really an interesting continuation of S7 Buffy, who felt disconnected from everyone, doing what Voll had accused her of.

[elisi]

S8 Buffy is really an interesting continuation of S7 Buffy
I can't see her as a logical continuation, but I *can* see her as a re-imagined Buffy. S8 so far strikes me as a mixture of fantasy, fairy tale and criminal thriller.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

What does a re-imagined Buffy mean? And what's the logical continuation of Buffy?

This Buffy is taking responsibility over the consequences of her actions, she doesn't leave the mess for her friends to clean up, this Buffy, to me, is someone to be proud of, because she stuck around to clean up her mess, despite her faults and questionable decisions. She's still disconnected from everything, trying to feel the connection between her and the others, again reminds me of S7 Buffy.

[elisi]

What does a re-imagined Buffy mean?
Sorry, didn't mean to be cryptic. I was referring to this comment by shipperx. Basically I see comic!Buffy as different from show!Buffy, just like show!Buffy was different from movie!Buffy. Different premise.

This Buffy is taking responsibility over the consequences of her actions, she doesn't leave the mess for her friends to clean up
Hm. Dunno. Buffy was *always* all about responsibility. And often she was the one to clean up after her friends - f.ex. the fact that they resurrected her was what brought The First into play. Anyway, yes she's taking responsibility for all the new slayers, but the way in which she does so (bank robbery) is criminal, amoral and unresponsible (especially so since she implicates her charges).

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

but the way in which she does so (bank robbery) is criminal, amoral and unresponsible (especially so since she implicates her charges).

It's basically all an act of desperation, Buffy was desperate for money to provide the facilities and clothes and feed the girls and rent/buy the castle. It's obvious they have no other mean for money. They couldn't have a garage sale or a lemonade stand *g* They needed money. Buffy got them the money. Was what she did wrong? Yes. Do we understand why she did it? Yes. Is she living up to the responsibility of why she did it and the consequences of what she's done? We're seeing that.

Everybody looks up to Buffy (even Giles). That's hard. We've seen that in S7. And this time we have a logical reason of how Buffy can support all these girls, unless they used the money Anya robbed from the bank in Him.

Buffy is not a bad person, she's not a perfect one, that's why she's interesting. Who wants another Clark Kent?

[elisi]

It's obvious they have no other mean for money.
It's not obvious to me, but then clearly that is just a difference of viewpoints or something. Angel f.ex. charged for his services, and I'm sure I could think of plenty of legal ways of making money if I had a whole bunch of superpowered girls handy. Like... construction! Xander could set up a firm (Since he knows the business), and they could make a small fortune building houses etc in record time. I just can't see bankrobbery being the only option. That's all.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

You're right. They had other options. I wasn't saying she was right, but this was the fastest way to get the most money now, when they need it.

Plus, setting up a firm is not gonna be as easy as it sounds. Angel didn't have 500 teenage slayers to support. And Xander is on board with the robbery thing, maybe he couldn't set up a construction firm. Besides, they have the government after them. There was no time to make a living. Again, Buffy was desperate, the fact she was upset about it in issue 11 shows how she hated that she had to do it, hated that she set a bad example to all her slayers.

[elisi]

Well I think she has the government after her *because* she's been robbing banks.

Twilight is of course after her anyway, but it gets help from the government because she poses a clear and proven threat.

See I don't have problems with heroes doing bankrobberies per se - f.ex. that's how Capt Mal makes his living. It's just Buffy that's OOC in that situation IMHO.

But it's not canon anyway, so really it doesn't matter! :)

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Well I think she has the government after her *because* she's been robbing banks.

According to issue one, they're after Buffy because they think she's a terrorist. (Blowing up a whole town) and as you said because Buffy is acting above the law.

In S7, she mentioned that she's the law, human rules don't apply. It's a clear foreshadow to S8.

But it's not canon anyway, so really it doesn't matter! :)

That's subjective. :) Guess to me, if Joss said it's canon, I'll take it as canon, this is his verse in the end. His characters don't act as we wish them to, there were out-of-character moments during the show, at least to me, but I sucked it up in the end.

[elisi]

According to issue one, they're after Buffy because they think she's a terrorist. (Blowing up a whole town)
They'd never in a million years be able to prove that, and also I'm sure it was Twilight who told them that. Bankrobbery however they *can* prove.

In S7, she mentioned that she's the law, human rules don't apply. It's a clear foreshadow to S8.
Oh no, it's a callback to S3 and Faith - and also to the fact that she shoulders a responsibility *outside* the law. If Anya had been human still, Buffy would have let the police deal with her (like Warren in S6).

His characters don't act as we wish them to, there were out-of-character moments during the show, at least to me, but I sucked it up in the end.
See the problem for me is that I've stopped caring about them in s8. The *story* is neat - well told (by now), well plotted etc - and I want to know what happens next. But I never watched Buffy because of the story, I watched because of the characters and how they story affected them. Like... oh say the AR. Getting Spike to go off and get his soul back could probably have been done in lots of different ways, it was the outcome that mattered. But with s8 I am curious about the story, not about how it will affect the characters. Will Xander betray Buffy? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that this is one of her oldest and most trustworthy friends really doesn't move me at all - it's a puzzle, a riddle, not a heart wrenching dilemma.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

With me it's the opposite. I'm enjoying S8 because of the characters, not the storyline. The storyline is neat, this big bad is actually interesting because he's not really evil (I was never a big fan of the show's big bads, only liked Angelus and Warren.)

However, plotline never interested me as much as characters. I'm enjoying Buffy here like I've never enjoyed her before, she's going through new challenges, bigger than the ones she faced in S7. I really wish SMG acted the scene with Giles on the phone, acted the scene with Faith in the pool, acted the scene with Satsu in the graveyard. Heck, all Buffy's scenes with Xander were awesome, and very Buffy-like.

I'm enjoying that they continued the friendship between Xander and Buffy, they were getting closer in S7, in ways they never had before (I think the scene in Seeing Red was the key) he was becoming as much of a family as Dawn, the hand squeeze in Chosen clearly shows that of all the Core Four, Xander was the only one she was really fine with.

I thought it was weird that Xander was in Africa when we had such a strong family vibe between Buffy, Xander and Dawn. This continuation makes more sense than Andrew's story in S5.

Buffy and Willow aren't as close as they used to, same goes with Buffy and Giles, as well as Buffy and Dawn, that's all interesting to me. Wish we get to see how that develops, and cross my fingers that this won't be another S7 where character relationships go to the background in favor of plot.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

It's basically all an act of desperation, Buffy was desperate for money to provide the facilities and clothes and feed the girls and rent/buy the castle. It's obvious they have no other mean for money.

We don't know it. I've got the impression that Buffy and her squad robbed the bank to finance their satellite system. I wish I knew more.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Which is also something she needs. She's got more than a 500 girls to support and take care of. She didn't have time to think it through, especially with the government being after them.

Things aren't as nice and easy as they were when she was still in Sunnydale. They got more complicated, and now Buffy is forced to step into a grayer area.

And you're right. Buffy is still not letting out much. We didn't see how she came to this decision. We're all assuming, accusing and defending. S8 is a big mystery that gives out little clues with each issue.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

That's my main problem with the story. I've got the impression that there is a lot of things happening without the audience knowing about them. Because the situation should be very desperate if Buffy robs a bank to buy a satellite system. (Since she uses her squad in the robbery, looks like she doesn't need money for training the girls - they're already trained)

About a year ago I wondered what the other 1300 slayers are doing and you suggested that they probably just live at homes with their parents. Do you still think this way?

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I've got the impression that there is a lot of things happening without the audience knowing about them.

It's fact. We don't really know what happened, we don't really know the whole why. We must wait until we get all the clues, and that would probably take years, seeing how slow this comic thing moves. I miss TV. Pouts.

About a year ago I wondered what the other 1300 slayers are doing and you suggested that they probably just live at homes with their parents. Do you still think this way?

Not anymore. Clearly they all live in the castle. Wonder about their parents and their school life, though. Maybe that's something we should ask Joss about in a con, or probably Scott.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman, I'm sure if Spike were to rob a bank he wouldn't provoke quite such a moralising response. Alternatively if Buffy's main/only function in the story is to inspire goodness in the fallen, whether Spike, Faith or Angel, I could see how she might be judged harshly by fans of those characters.

Interesting question. No, I don't think it's because Buffy is a woman. I think it's mainly because she has never been involved in any criminal activities before. Be it Spike, Angel, Faith and even Dawn, it wouldn't be so unexpected.

Buffy can break the law in a desperate situation. She has burned the gym in her school, and in season 7 she accepted Faith who escaped from prison. But I just can't imagine the situation in which Buffy needs her missile system so desperately that she plans and executes a complex crime to obtain money.

Actually, the aspect that bothers me the most is that she has used the newly-called slayers in her scheme. Maybe it's because I'm a parent and I can't help but ask myself what would these girls' parents do if they discover that their daughters are taught to get away with robbing banks.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I think it's mainly because she has never been involved in any criminal activities before.

The day she was called she mistook her watcher for a store detective investigating stolen lipstick. She completely endorses Willow’s hacking activities and Xander’s acquisition of a US army rocket launcher. She breaks into countless official buildings on routine information gathering expeditions and robs a sporting goods store with Faith (after ascertaining that the goods are insured). She does take the law on unlawful killings very seriously but property law, especially corporate property she’s consistently flexible on.

As to the need for all this equipment we’ve already been shown one instance where stakes and crosses would have proved inadequate, namely Yammanh's invasion of the upper world. I thought at the time that might be an indication that the world had changed in terms of either the level of demon aggression or Buffy and Co’s awarness of it now that they’re no longed locked down in Sunnydale and Buffy’s line about there seeming to be more demons to fight appears to confirm that.

I’m a parent and can sympathise with parental concerns, I always liked Joyce. But I’d feel much happier that my daughters were making their own choices to help save a world under constant attack by monsters and were part of a well funded organisation that cared about their welfare under the new regime than in the old days of the Watcher’s Council. I’d probably be selfish and turn a blind eye to where that funding came from. Did you think Giles was a corrupter of youth? Or Spike when he taught Dawn to shimmy open the Magic Box door? The show was never big on parental points of view, we never get to ask what Xander or Willow’s parents think of Buffy’s influence. These comics are finally introducing such concerns as an issue - whatever the back story to her bank job, the problems it creates in terms of Buffy being a role model for other Slayers are being made completely textual and something Buffy is taking very much on board.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I've forgotten about the stolen lipstick, thanks for reminding. But I'm still very uneasy about Buffy involving other persons, young girls who see her as a role model, into bank robbery.

Re Giles and Spike: Giles has never sent Buffy to rob banks, and Spike was soulless when he broke into the Magic Box.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I'm still very uneasy about Buffy involving other persons
As is Buffy, having seen what it lead to, and as are the comics.

Having said that, however in character Spike was being the question is whether you felt uneasy about Dawn hanging out with and being influenced by his soulessness. The show did but as I recall a section of the audience seemed to think it was cute. Giles never sent Buffy to rob banks but he sanctioned all her other legal activities, admits to his own little job on the council headquarters in Bring on the Night and there are other crimes. Killing people for one. But what would make me as a parent (and Joyce as a parent did express this) uneasy was that Giles was a representative of a system that used young girls as instruments in their war, offering them neither renumeration nor respite and effectively blackmailing them into their duty with the argument that they either did it or let the world go to hell. The new slayer troops are genuinely voluntary, the girls well provided for and there's no reason to believe that they can't take home leave if they have family.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Watcher Council and Slayers upbringing are the fantastiс elements and we were suspending our disbelief when we were accepting very possibility of the existence of such an organization. OTOH, banks and robberies are realistic elements, they are part of RL and it's harder to dismiss it as a necessary means to achieve utterly fantastic goals.

The new slayer troops are genuinely voluntary, the girls well provided for and there's no reason to believe that they can't take home leave if they have family.

I wonder what are other 1300 slayers up to. :)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

OK that just makes no sense to me given the way BtVS has always mixed the realistic and fantasy elements. Rocket launchers are real, humanity zapping smurf demons not so much. YMMV

I imagine the other 1300 slayers are doing whatever they would have done otherwise or are underage for Scottish beer drinking.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman, I'm sure if Spike were to rob a bank he wouldn't provoke quite such a moralising response.
I didn't see anybody rejecting Buffy, moreso for being a woman. What was rejected was Buffy's methods, and the examples she set for her slayers. Those methods were rejected by no one other as Willow in #10, who likened Buffy's actions to those of Warren and the Trio - all of whom were men. And all of whom were sufficiently condemned on the show, I daresay. So no, it has nothing to do with Buffy's being a woman.
The Trio's descent into darkness started with robberies too. That's what makes Willow very uncomfortable, and therefore us, the readers. If your get your actions compared to Warren's... whew. You can't get any more condemned in Buffyverse.
Willow warned of the first domino - and we saw a second domino in #11, with Simone. The connection was pretty clear, and made by Buffy herself, of all people. The rejection of Buffy's methods is set up within the story, by authors as well as main characters. The readers, like myself, just follow the story.

As for Spike doing illegal things in #5-#6 - they were there to keep us on the alert, to remind us that he's a soulless vampire, a wolf who's still dangerous rather than a warm and fuzzy lovesick puppy. We saw him stealing from the hospital in WoW, delighting in demon-bikers destruction in Bargaining, and yes, breaking to Magic Box - for that purpose. He wasn't supposed to be a good example for Dawn in there.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I’m not arguing that what Buffy did was a good thing although I’d describe it more as naïve than evil. But I am puzzled by some of the more extreme responses I’ve seen, labeling her “the ultimate villain” seems unwarrented. Such responses may well bear no relation to her being a woman, that was just one suggestion. Many of the characters on the show had a lot invested in the idea of Buffy being good and if people are invested in those characters they may have a similar response to seeing her feet of clay. There’s also the very good point stormwreath made about Twilight standing for (parts of) the audience in wanting to strip Buffy of her moral certainty. Nevertheless, the way that as soon as she does anything wrong or at best ill-judged she becomes the bad Slayer does recall the old madonna-whore dichotomy, which is why I brought up the woman thing as a possibility.

Willow does condemn the bank robbery but not by comparing it to the Trio’s activities. She first points out a practical downside, that it creates new and powerful enemies. That’s not a moral criticism, it’s equivalent to a fear of being caught. Then she makes the 'first domino' point but to me that sounded more like a reference to Willow’s own domino-by-domino fall into darkness than a reference to the Trio. Buffy’s bank robbery is actually very different from Warren’s in two significant ways.

Firstly, as far as we can tell, it wasn’t done for kicks or to buy playthings but to equip her Slayers against the (ever increasing) demon threat and reduce their fatalities. From what we’ve seen of their use, the satellite systems etc allow different Slayer groups to communicate effectively, do reconnaissance, extend their protection to victims in previously inaccessible locations and fight off invading demon armies without relying on randomly acquired amulets. In that sense the bank robbery is more comparable to stealing the rocket launcher than any of the Trio’s activities. It’s not identical being a much larger job and less directly related to a specific world-saveage but that, I believe is exactly where things get interesting, at what point do activities we condone (or even applaud) in individuals become unjustifiable when committed by organizations?

Secondly, is the issue of remorse/self-doubt. Warren showed no concern about the effects of his super-criminality at any point. Not when he made April, not for the bank robbery, not for freezing Rusty and in the end not for killing Katrina. To me it was Katrina’s death that made him a villian, not the first domino but the constant succession of them. I think Adam Busch said once of Warren that he had a whole series of chances to make the right choices but never did. Buffy, on the other hand is only at her first domino and already fully prepared to admit she did something wrong. She not only accepts Willow’s argument about generating enemies but, and without anyone else suggesting it, grasps the link between what she did and Simone’s activities. For that reason I really don’t think this is intended to be a story in the Angel style of turn evil-find redemption. I suspect it’s going to follow more the late BtVS model of being about isolation-reconnection.