BtVS issue 11spoilery specs

[moscow_watcher]

I finally read issue 11. Don't have ideas for a review, but here are some spoilery speculations.

1. Twilight's identity.

He's somebody we know. Story-wise, there is no need to hide a face and to change a voice (I was told that "funny" font he uses means he distorts his voice) unless you're afraid to be recognized.

Who is he? So far the prime suspects are Caleb and Riley.

Arguments for Caleb:

-- he's been shown twice in the comics (in this issue and in Buffy's dreamspace in issue 3)
-- he knows "Buffy's move" when she tries to use the technique she used to kill Caleb
-- Caleb is a preacher and Buffy/Twilight fight is heavy with church props and there is even a direct reference (Buffy: "Church me")

Arguments against Caleb:

-- I find it hard to imagine him aknowledging that "one girl was OK"

-- Twilight's cool boots are his trademark feature and Caleb wore shoes in season 7



Arguments for Riley

-- Although he isn't mentioned by name, there is a lot of indirect Riley presence in this issue. Twilight's arrival is forestalled with Buffy recalling her dream in Restless (Buffy to Satsu: "You look like me in a dream I had one time")




RILEY: (offscreen) Thought you were looking for your friends. Okay, killer... if that's the way you want it. I guess you're on your own. (Walks off.)

-- later Buffy mentions Riley among "people who died" - - "they start letting vamps suck on 'em and they leave"

-- Joss has promised Riley's return

Arguments against Riley

-- character-wise, it doesn't make sense (then again does Buffy robbing banks make sense?)

2. Mole identity.

I can't see anybody but Renee as a mole.

Story-wise, it's very Jossian. Renee as a traitor will provide Xander with a heartbreak big enough to satisfy Joss.

Character-wise, it doesn't add up: she sounds very sweet and sincerely in love with Xander. But I can't help remembering Knox on Joss-penned AtS episode A Hole in the World. He also was sweet and sounded sincere in his love for Fred. Joss even included him in a powershot of the characters going with the mission of saving Fred. And several scenes later a slip of tongue betrayed him as a man who killed her. Typical Joss.

So - any ideas?

Comments

[shapinglight]

:Blinks:

Joss said Riley would come back? When was this?

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Giles? He flies, therefore there's some magic involved, right?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I'm still open-minded on who the mole will be... but after seeing Renee wearing black leather trousers in this episode, she's shot right to the top of the list. :-)

Plus, remember how pre-planned her approach is; she's been studying comic books, drywalling, etc, to make herself into the sort of person Xander would be attracted to.

Cute or sinister? You decide.
(Of course, it could be both cute and sinister. In the Buffyverse, that's practically normal...)

[2maggie2.livejournal.com]

Scott Allie on his Q&A was asked what the last names of the new slayers were, and he said that he didn't. Except that Renee's last name might have been floated around.

There's only one other last name that's shown up in the comics, and that's Lt. Molter. So Allie's remarks make it sound *very* likely that the man on the inside is Renee.

I'm hoping that it's an unwitting role, wherein her mother/sister/female relative extracts information from her in the course of ordinary conversation. Cause I like Renee. (And this is my discomfort with the new medium. It's hard enough to feel vested in the new comic-only characters. If it turns out that one who has been portrayed sympathetically was really just totally lying, it makes it harder to feel drawn in by the sympathetic drawings of other characters. Cause, you know, the drawings count for zero. (Renee hasn't a suspicious look in her repertoire that I've seen).

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I can't remember the source, sorry. I'll try find out. I'll reply later.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hardly. In issue 3 he tries to find out something about Twilight symbol in his conversation with a demon. It can't be an act - he has nobody to act for.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I'm still open-minded on who the mole will be... but after seeing Renee wearing black leather trousers in this episode, she's shot right to the top of the list. :-)

Oh, the leather pants of evilness!!! :)
Actually, I have other reasons to think it's her. With season 9 announced semi-officially, Core Four gets an "opening credits immunization". Among new characters there are only two prominent enough to make sense story-wise: Satsu and Renee. Both are love interests of Core Four members so their unmasking will create a lot of angst for a major character.

Satsu is a lesbian, and after fandom outcry at Tara's death I doubt Joss will ever dare to introduce another gay controversy. This leaves Renee.

Plus, remember how pre-planned her approach is; she's been studying comic books, drywalling, etc, to make herself into the sort of person Xander would be attracted to.

Theoretically, one can object that if making Xander fall in love with her was part of Renee spy mission she wouldn't make it obvious that she's trying to be a person Xander would be attracted to.

I'd rather suggest that she has been sent with a strictly spying mission but fell in love and now she thinks she has to save Xander from Buffy's evil clutches. From her POW he's the only normal person in the castle.

Do you remember Joss' declaration "There is no truth. There is just what you believe" in issue 5? Renee may be a distorted mirror of a Decoy!Buffy who unleashed thw war in the underworld. Or a clone of Knox who thought that by making Fred's body the vessel for Illyria he granted her the ultimate honor.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Scott Allie on his Q&A was asked what the last names of the new slayers were, and he said that he didn't. Except that Renee's last name might have been floated around.

Yes, it's quite intriguing per se, and with current development it becomes even more suspicious.

I'm hoping that it's an unwitting role, wherein her mother/sister/female relative extracts information from her in the course of ordinary conversation.

Knowing Joss I doubt it. The more angst the better - that's his motto. And don't forget candid photos of Buffy and her squad at Gigi's.

If it turns out that one who has been portrayed sympathetically was really just totally lying, it makes it harder to feel drawn in by the sympathetic drawings of other characters. Cause, you know, the drawings count for zero. (Renee hasn't a suspicious look in her repertoire that I've seen).

I won't be surprised if Renee will be portrayed as a person who sincerely believes she's right. From her POW, she's helping the humanity to get rid of evil slayers and Xander is part of the humanity.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I asked at SlayAlive and people gave me the link:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/newsitem.cgi?id=9674

It's not just Buffy's regular supporting cast that Whedon has plans for in "Buffy." He also hopes to check in with loads of other characters like Buffy's ex-boyfriend, government monster slayer, Riley Finn. "I have plans for everybody," Whedon said. "I cannot tell you if these plans will come to fruition because somebody might have a better idea.

So, it's not an official confirmation, but, at least, there were hints at Riley's return.

[elisi]

I'd rather suggest that she has been sent with a strictly spying mission but fell in love and now she thinks she has to save Xander from Buffy's evil clutches. From her POW he's the only normal person in the castle.
You know that makes a lot of sense. And then she could get Xander on her side, leading to the scene where Buffy cries because she's been betrayed.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hee! I like your idea!

But, seriously, I can't figure out if we're supposed to sympathize with this Buffy. She robs banks. She involves young girls into criminal activities. She's emotionally disconnected with everybody. Xander is her last emotional stronghold.

I imagine a dialogue:

Xander to Renee: How could you spy on Buffy?
Renee: No, Xander - how could *you* defend her? She's a criminal! She turns young girls into robbers! You're a decent man, Xander, and I believe in you. Time to make a choice. Either you're with a criminal who corrupts innocent souls or you're with people who try to stop her.

Ah, the angst... :)

[elisi]

Ah, the angst... :)
Heh. Well it would be angsty if I actually cared about any of them. It's more like a really good episode of CSI or something.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

But, seriously, I can't figure out if we're supposed to sympathize with this Buffy.

I think it depends. If you had sympathized with Angel in AtS S2, then there's no problem in sympathizing with Buffy, especially since each new issue reveals something. We know Buffy hates stealing, thinks she's setting a bad example for her slayers, but she had to do it.

I think I feel more sympathy toward Buffy here than Angel in S2, Angel's crimes are bigger in my eyes. Buffy's, while wrong, are less creepy.

[elisi]

The circumstances are very different. Essentially Buffy has decided to charge for her Slaying activities (funding her army that helps humankind), but she's not upfront about it the way Angel was. It's like... Angel saving someone (rich) because it's what he does, being a hero and all, and then breaking in and stealing from that person when he needs to pay the bills.

(Basically Buffy is proactive, whereas Angel in S2 was reactive. That's the difference.)

[thedeadlyhook.livejournal.com]

Well, I guess that shows how out of touch I am on the plot stuff! *g* No idea, then, unless it does turn out to be Riley.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

In tax terms however Angel is regressive and Buffy progressive - taking from people according to their ability to pay rather than exploiting their desperation. However I suspect lusciousxander was specifying S2 not S1 Angel because the point was that it's perfectly possible to sympathsise with someone doing something you believe to be wrong (like locking a bunch of human lawyers in a room with two psychotic, hungry vampires).

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman, I'm sure if Spike were to rob a bank he wouldn't provoke quite such a moralising response. Alternatively if Buffy's main/only function in the story is to inspire goodness in the fallen, whether Spike, Faith or Angel, I could see how she might be judged harshly by fans of those characters.

[elisi]

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman
Possibly, but that is not *my* problem. I just don't think it's in character for her. If it were Willow f.ex. I'd not bat an eyelid. (And I thoroughly enjoyed stormwreath's fic where Willow *did* rob a bank!)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman, I'm sure if Spike were to rob a bank he wouldn't provoke quite such a moralising response. Alternatively if Buffy's main/only function in the story is to inspire goodness in the fallen, whether Spike, Faith or Angel, I could see how she might be judged harshly by fans of those characters.

Interesting question. No, I don't think it's because Buffy is a woman. I think it's mainly because she has never been involved in any criminal activities before. Be it Spike, Angel, Faith and even Dawn, it wouldn't be so unexpected.

Buffy can break the law in a desperate situation. She has burned the gym in her school, and in season 7 she accepted Faith who escaped from prison. But I just can't imagine the situation in which Buffy needs her missile system so desperately that she plans and executes a complex crime to obtain money.

Actually, the aspect that bothers me the most is that she has used the newly-called slayers in her scheme. Maybe it's because I'm a parent and I can't help but ask myself what would these girls' parents do if they discover that their daughters are taught to get away with robbing banks.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I think it's mainly because she has never been involved in any criminal activities before.

The day she was called she mistook her watcher for a store detective investigating stolen lipstick. She completely endorses Willow’s hacking activities and Xander’s acquisition of a US army rocket launcher. She breaks into countless official buildings on routine information gathering expeditions and robs a sporting goods store with Faith (after ascertaining that the goods are insured). She does take the law on unlawful killings very seriously but property law, especially corporate property she’s consistently flexible on.

As to the need for all this equipment we’ve already been shown one instance where stakes and crosses would have proved inadequate, namely Yammanh's invasion of the upper world. I thought at the time that might be an indication that the world had changed in terms of either the level of demon aggression or Buffy and Co’s awarness of it now that they’re no longed locked down in Sunnydale and Buffy’s line about there seeming to be more demons to fight appears to confirm that.

I’m a parent and can sympathise with parental concerns, I always liked Joyce. But I’d feel much happier that my daughters were making their own choices to help save a world under constant attack by monsters and were part of a well funded organisation that cared about their welfare under the new regime than in the old days of the Watcher’s Council. I’d probably be selfish and turn a blind eye to where that funding came from. Did you think Giles was a corrupter of youth? Or Spike when he taught Dawn to shimmy open the Magic Box door? The show was never big on parental points of view, we never get to ask what Xander or Willow’s parents think of Buffy’s influence. These comics are finally introducing such concerns as an issue - whatever the back story to her bank job, the problems it creates in terms of Buffy being a role model for other Slayers are being made completely textual and something Buffy is taking very much on board.

[shapinglight]

Thanks for that, Moscow. Have to admit, I took to skimming Joss's interviews re: the comic after it came out that Spike and Angel were unlikely to be used.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I've forgotten about the stolen lipstick, thanks for reminding. But I'm still very uneasy about Buffy involving other persons, young girls who see her as a role model, into bank robbery.

Re Giles and Spike: Giles has never sent Buffy to rob banks, and Spike was soulless when he broke into the Magic Box.

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

I'm still very uneasy about Buffy involving other persons
As is Buffy, having seen what it lead to, and as are the comics.

Having said that, however in character Spike was being the question is whether you felt uneasy about Dawn hanging out with and being influenced by his soulessness. The show did but as I recall a section of the audience seemed to think it was cute. Giles never sent Buffy to rob banks but he sanctioned all her other legal activities, admits to his own little job on the council headquarters in Bring on the Night and there are other crimes. Killing people for one. But what would make me as a parent (and Joyce as a parent did express this) uneasy was that Giles was a representative of a system that used young girls as instruments in their war, offering them neither renumeration nor respite and effectively blackmailing them into their duty with the argument that they either did it or let the world go to hell. The new slayer troops are genuinely voluntary, the girls well provided for and there's no reason to believe that they can't take home leave if they have family.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Watcher Council and Slayers upbringing are the fantastiс elements and we were suspending our disbelief when we were accepting very possibility of the existence of such an organization. OTOH, banks and robberies are realistic elements, they are part of RL and it's harder to dismiss it as a necessary means to achieve utterly fantastic goals.

The new slayer troops are genuinely voluntary, the girls well provided for and there's no reason to believe that they can't take home leave if they have family.

I wonder what are other 1300 slayers up to. :)

[aycheb.livejournal.com]

OK that just makes no sense to me given the way BtVS has always mixed the realistic and fantasy elements. Rocket launchers are real, humanity zapping smurf demons not so much. YMMV

I imagine the other 1300 slayers are doing whatever they would have done otherwise or are underage for Scottish beer drinking.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Ironically, Willow was upset with Buffy about what she had done.

I don't think Buffy did it for the thrill (like when she robbed in S3 with Faith), I think she had all these girls depending on her, and felt it was necessarily that she had to get them a place to hide filled with weapons and armors to protect them. She felt guilty about it, especially when Willow knew and was upset with her. S8 Buffy is really an interesting continuation of S7 Buffy, who felt disconnected from everyone, doing what Voll had accused her of.