BtVS issue 11spoilery specs

[moscow_watcher]

I finally read issue 11. Don't have ideas for a review, but here are some spoilery speculations.

1. Twilight's identity.

He's somebody we know. Story-wise, there is no need to hide a face and to change a voice (I was told that "funny" font he uses means he distorts his voice) unless you're afraid to be recognized.

Who is he? So far the prime suspects are Caleb and Riley.

Arguments for Caleb:

-- he's been shown twice in the comics (in this issue and in Buffy's dreamspace in issue 3)
-- he knows "Buffy's move" when she tries to use the technique she used to kill Caleb
-- Caleb is a preacher and Buffy/Twilight fight is heavy with church props and there is even a direct reference (Buffy: "Church me")

Arguments against Caleb:

-- I find it hard to imagine him aknowledging that "one girl was OK"

-- Twilight's cool boots are his trademark feature and Caleb wore shoes in season 7



Arguments for Riley

-- Although he isn't mentioned by name, there is a lot of indirect Riley presence in this issue. Twilight's arrival is forestalled with Buffy recalling her dream in Restless (Buffy to Satsu: "You look like me in a dream I had one time")




RILEY: (offscreen) Thought you were looking for your friends. Okay, killer... if that's the way you want it. I guess you're on your own. (Walks off.)

-- later Buffy mentions Riley among "people who died" - - "they start letting vamps suck on 'em and they leave"

-- Joss has promised Riley's return

Arguments against Riley

-- character-wise, it doesn't make sense (then again does Buffy robbing banks make sense?)

2. Mole identity.

I can't see anybody but Renee as a mole.

Story-wise, it's very Jossian. Renee as a traitor will provide Xander with a heartbreak big enough to satisfy Joss.

Character-wise, it doesn't add up: she sounds very sweet and sincerely in love with Xander. But I can't help remembering Knox on Joss-penned AtS episode A Hole in the World. He also was sweet and sounded sincere in his love for Fred. Joss even included him in a powershot of the characters going with the mission of saving Fred. And several scenes later a slip of tongue betrayed him as a man who killed her. Typical Joss.

So - any ideas?

Comments

[elisi]

S8 Buffy is really an interesting continuation of S7 Buffy
I can't see her as a logical continuation, but I *can* see her as a re-imagined Buffy. S8 so far strikes me as a mixture of fantasy, fairy tale and criminal thriller.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

What does a re-imagined Buffy mean? And what's the logical continuation of Buffy?

This Buffy is taking responsibility over the consequences of her actions, she doesn't leave the mess for her friends to clean up, this Buffy, to me, is someone to be proud of, because she stuck around to clean up her mess, despite her faults and questionable decisions. She's still disconnected from everything, trying to feel the connection between her and the others, again reminds me of S7 Buffy.

[the-darkstar.livejournal.com]

I also have the feeling that it *might* be Riley. However, I don't think this add up really. How should that work.

It seems to be a male person, though.

Just for the record:
Could be OZ as well...

[the-darkstar.livejournal.com]

Wow - the dream sentence was a reference to RESTLESS.
I am a hardcore Buffy-fan, but it did not came to my mind.
But I guess you're right!

[elisi]

What does a re-imagined Buffy mean?
Sorry, didn't mean to be cryptic. I was referring to this comment by shipperx. Basically I see comic!Buffy as different from show!Buffy, just like show!Buffy was different from movie!Buffy. Different premise.

This Buffy is taking responsibility over the consequences of her actions, she doesn't leave the mess for her friends to clean up
Hm. Dunno. Buffy was *always* all about responsibility. And often she was the one to clean up after her friends - f.ex. the fact that they resurrected her was what brought The First into play. Anyway, yes she's taking responsibility for all the new slayers, but the way in which she does so (bank robbery) is criminal, amoral and unresponsible (especially so since she implicates her charges).

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

but the way in which she does so (bank robbery) is criminal, amoral and unresponsible (especially so since she implicates her charges).

It's basically all an act of desperation, Buffy was desperate for money to provide the facilities and clothes and feed the girls and rent/buy the castle. It's obvious they have no other mean for money. They couldn't have a garage sale or a lemonade stand *g* They needed money. Buffy got them the money. Was what she did wrong? Yes. Do we understand why she did it? Yes. Is she living up to the responsibility of why she did it and the consequences of what she's done? We're seeing that.

Everybody looks up to Buffy (even Giles). That's hard. We've seen that in S7. And this time we have a logical reason of how Buffy can support all these girls, unless they used the money Anya robbed from the bank in Him.

Buffy is not a bad person, she's not a perfect one, that's why she's interesting. Who wants another Clark Kent?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

However, I don't think this add up really. How should that work.

In Buffy's dream he looks very menacing... Could it be a foreshadowing? It's not hard to invent a transformation that has occurred to him in the demon-infested jungles.

Could be OZ as well...

:)))))
Great idea! He wolfed out and became a good meter taller!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Then I think I may be qualified as a hardcore fan too! :)

[elisi]

It's obvious they have no other mean for money.
It's not obvious to me, but then clearly that is just a difference of viewpoints or something. Angel f.ex. charged for his services, and I'm sure I could think of plenty of legal ways of making money if I had a whole bunch of superpowered girls handy. Like... construction! Xander could set up a firm (Since he knows the business), and they could make a small fortune building houses etc in record time. I just can't see bankrobbery being the only option. That's all.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

It's basically all an act of desperation, Buffy was desperate for money to provide the facilities and clothes and feed the girls and rent/buy the castle. It's obvious they have no other mean for money.

We don't know it. I've got the impression that Buffy and her squad robbed the bank to finance their satellite system. I wish I knew more.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

You're right. They had other options. I wasn't saying she was right, but this was the fastest way to get the most money now, when they need it.

Plus, setting up a firm is not gonna be as easy as it sounds. Angel didn't have 500 teenage slayers to support. And Xander is on board with the robbery thing, maybe he couldn't set up a construction firm. Besides, they have the government after them. There was no time to make a living. Again, Buffy was desperate, the fact she was upset about it in issue 11 shows how she hated that she had to do it, hated that she set a bad example to all her slayers.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Which is also something she needs. She's got more than a 500 girls to support and take care of. She didn't have time to think it through, especially with the government being after them.

Things aren't as nice and easy as they were when she was still in Sunnydale. They got more complicated, and now Buffy is forced to step into a grayer area.

And you're right. Buffy is still not letting out much. We didn't see how she came to this decision. We're all assuming, accusing and defending. S8 is a big mystery that gives out little clues with each issue.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I do wonder whether people's rejection of Buffy is related to her being a woman, I'm sure if Spike were to rob a bank he wouldn't provoke quite such a moralising response.
I didn't see anybody rejecting Buffy, moreso for being a woman. What was rejected was Buffy's methods, and the examples she set for her slayers. Those methods were rejected by no one other as Willow in #10, who likened Buffy's actions to those of Warren and the Trio - all of whom were men. And all of whom were sufficiently condemned on the show, I daresay. So no, it has nothing to do with Buffy's being a woman.
The Trio's descent into darkness started with robberies too. That's what makes Willow very uncomfortable, and therefore us, the readers. If your get your actions compared to Warren's... whew. You can't get any more condemned in Buffyverse.
Willow warned of the first domino - and we saw a second domino in #11, with Simone. The connection was pretty clear, and made by Buffy herself, of all people. The rejection of Buffy's methods is set up within the story, by authors as well as main characters. The readers, like myself, just follow the story.

As for Spike doing illegal things in #5-#6 - they were there to keep us on the alert, to remind us that he's a soulless vampire, a wolf who's still dangerous rather than a warm and fuzzy lovesick puppy. We saw him stealing from the hospital in WoW, delighting in demon-bikers destruction in Bargaining, and yes, breaking to Magic Box - for that purpose. He wasn't supposed to be a good example for Dawn in there.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

I agree Caleb seems the most likely candidate, but I'd hate for it be him. He was over-the-top and boring, and he's dead. Maybe it's the First merging with someone else?
And I don't think it's Riley.

Also this issue made me doubt the Twilight's original claim that its goal is to destroy all magic. Now it seems to be reverting the change brought by Buffy. By trying to break the chain, and now, as we can see, by demoralizing Buffy instead of killing her. Strange, but I can see an ambigous guy in this role, the guy who thinks he's a good guy and is doing the right thing.

Giles seems more likely in this role. Also maybe it would explain how he could find a spell so fast in that Twilight manual, to destroy Roden. Maybe he already knew the spell? Also we saw Giles already bitching about there being too many Slayers, and the shifting of balance. I'll go with Giles for a time being, and his betrayal would be the closest and unexpected, even after his previous betrayals. Because previous betrayals he either regretted and amended for, or did them for Buffy's own good, as he saw it.

[elisi]

Well I think she has the government after her *because* she's been robbing banks.

Twilight is of course after her anyway, but it gets help from the government because she poses a clear and proven threat.

See I don't have problems with heroes doing bankrobberies per se - f.ex. that's how Capt Mal makes his living. It's just Buffy that's OOC in that situation IMHO.

But it's not canon anyway, so really it doesn't matter! :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I agree Caleb seems the most likely candidate, but I'd hate for it be him. He was over-the-top and boring, and he's dead. Maybe it's the First merging with someone else?

With Joss :)))

But, seriously, I remember reading somebody's report that writers were very excited about Caleb and work with Nathan Fillion when Joss told them. They started to invent Caleb's trademark gestures and expressions, but Joss told them that, unfortunately, they don't have time for it. Maybe he's catching up.

So far, Twilight's scratchy neck made me laugh at least once.

And I don't think it's Riley.

I also doubt it. Although Buffy's dream has a very menacing Riley in it, it may be a coincidence.

Also this issue made me doubt the Twilight's original claim that its goal is to destroy all magic. Now it seems to be reverting the change brought by Buffy.

Looking at the bigger picture, I think that season 9 will feature the one and only Slayer again. No evidence, no rational explanation, just a feeling.

Giles seems more likely in this role.

In issue 3 Giles is trying to find out about Twilight symbol when he speaks with a demon. I doubt it was an act.

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

In issue 3 Giles is trying to find out about Twilight symbol when he speaks with a demon. I doubt it was an act.
He could be acting for those demons' sake. And we saw Twilight employing demons as well. Hi might be checking how much those demons know. But I'm reaching here, it's just a speculation. Anything is possible.

[pen-romantic.livejournal.com]

Ok I do think it is Caleb because the scene in this last issue was pretty much ointless other that remember his existance

I however think Riley will be above (rank wise) being all govermenty like... plus it is so like Joss... big bad going straight the next season (Spike season 2 and 4 and tehn in 5, 6 ,7 ) , and good guy becoming big bad the next one (Angel season 1 and season 2)

I for one don't want to see Xander heart broken again (although we all know it is inevitable) but maybe there will be someone heart broken enough to have a revenge demon summoned and ANYA is back..... yes I am still hoping for her to show

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

That's my main problem with the story. I've got the impression that there is a lot of things happening without the audience knowing about them. Because the situation should be very desperate if Buffy robs a bank to buy a satellite system. (Since she uses her squad in the robbery, looks like she doesn't need money for training the girls - they're already trained)

About a year ago I wondered what the other 1300 slayers are doing and you suggested that they probably just live at homes with their parents. Do you still think this way?

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Well I think she has the government after her *because* she's been robbing banks.

According to issue one, they're after Buffy because they think she's a terrorist. (Blowing up a whole town) and as you said because Buffy is acting above the law.

In S7, she mentioned that she's the law, human rules don't apply. It's a clear foreshadow to S8.

But it's not canon anyway, so really it doesn't matter! :)

That's subjective. :) Guess to me, if Joss said it's canon, I'll take it as canon, this is his verse in the end. His characters don't act as we wish them to, there were out-of-character moments during the show, at least to me, but I sucked it up in the end.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

maybe there will be someone heart broken enough to have a revenge demon summoned and ANYA is back..... yes I am still hoping for her to show

I like the idea! Without demons - Anya and Spike - in the regular cast the show has lost part of its charm. Since Spike is busy in Los-Angeles, Anya could represent the demon population for the two of them! :)

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

I've got the impression that there is a lot of things happening without the audience knowing about them.

It's fact. We don't really know what happened, we don't really know the whole why. We must wait until we get all the clues, and that would probably take years, seeing how slow this comic thing moves. I miss TV. Pouts.

About a year ago I wondered what the other 1300 slayers are doing and you suggested that they probably just live at homes with their parents. Do you still think this way?

Not anymore. Clearly they all live in the castle. Wonder about their parents and their school life, though. Maybe that's something we should ask Joss about in a con, or probably Scott.

[pen-romantic.livejournal.com]

Yes I know .. and I do not want a Clem cameo he was absurd and nota good charchter like Lorne was... we need something evil looking, ironically in teh Angel comics no one is human well except Angel , youhave 2 vampires , a werewolf girl, a fish, a semigod
a superhuamn teen, and in Buffy team, we have onluy humans.. well except Dawn... but yes we need someone evil looking but good hearted....

[elisi]

According to issue one, they're after Buffy because they think she's a terrorist. (Blowing up a whole town)
They'd never in a million years be able to prove that, and also I'm sure it was Twilight who told them that. Bankrobbery however they *can* prove.

In S7, she mentioned that she's the law, human rules don't apply. It's a clear foreshadow to S8.
Oh no, it's a callback to S3 and Faith - and also to the fact that she shoulders a responsibility *outside* the law. If Anya had been human still, Buffy would have let the police deal with her (like Warren in S6).

His characters don't act as we wish them to, there were out-of-character moments during the show, at least to me, but I sucked it up in the end.
See the problem for me is that I've stopped caring about them in s8. The *story* is neat - well told (by now), well plotted etc - and I want to know what happens next. But I never watched Buffy because of the story, I watched because of the characters and how they story affected them. Like... oh say the AR. Getting Spike to go off and get his soul back could probably have been done in lots of different ways, it was the outcome that mattered. But with s8 I am curious about the story, not about how it will affect the characters. Will Xander betray Buffy? Maybe, maybe not. The fact that this is one of her oldest and most trustworthy friends really doesn't move me at all - it's a puzzle, a riddle, not a heart wrenching dilemma.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

With me it's the opposite. I'm enjoying S8 because of the characters, not the storyline. The storyline is neat, this big bad is actually interesting because he's not really evil (I was never a big fan of the show's big bads, only liked Angelus and Warren.)

However, plotline never interested me as much as characters. I'm enjoying Buffy here like I've never enjoyed her before, she's going through new challenges, bigger than the ones she faced in S7. I really wish SMG acted the scene with Giles on the phone, acted the scene with Faith in the pool, acted the scene with Satsu in the graveyard. Heck, all Buffy's scenes with Xander were awesome, and very Buffy-like.

I'm enjoying that they continued the friendship between Xander and Buffy, they were getting closer in S7, in ways they never had before (I think the scene in Seeing Red was the key) he was becoming as much of a family as Dawn, the hand squeeze in Chosen clearly shows that of all the Core Four, Xander was the only one she was really fine with.

I thought it was weird that Xander was in Africa when we had such a strong family vibe between Buffy, Xander and Dawn. This continuation makes more sense than Andrew's story in S5.

Buffy and Willow aren't as close as they used to, same goes with Buffy and Giles, as well as Buffy and Dawn, that's all interesting to me. Wish we get to see how that develops, and cross my fingers that this won't be another S7 where character relationships go to the background in favor of plot.