Scott Allie Letter

[moscow_watcher]

Recent kerkuffle at SlayAlive forums regarding Spike crossing over to BtVS in season 8 prompted me to write to Scott Allie. He replied quickly with thoughtful letter and gave me the permission to post it.

Previously on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" SlayAlive forum:

June 8 Scott Allie posted at SlayAlive, replying to fans who accused him of disliking Spike and deliberately writing him out of comics back in 2001-2002. His post is here. In brief: he said that several technical problems kept DH from using Spike in later seasons and then wrote about "Spike having raped Buffy" - words, that, I have to admit, made me mad.

I posted a harsh reply: "Why can't you honestly admit you dislike the character, mr. Allie? Why do you hide behind Spike-hating letters in "Slay the critics" column?" I wasn't reading comics back in 2002 and my main concern was DH printing Spike-hating letters in season 8, like this one (I post it here only because it's relevant to our correspondence)



When I brought up this letter, the discussion on SlayAlive became heated. The next day Scott Allie posted another explanation - and I realised that my posts were harsh and uncalled for. So I wrote him

Dear Mr. Allie,

I am a member of SlayAlive forum, my fandom name is Moscow Watcher and I was one of the posters in the now-notorious discussion regarding your attitude to Spike.

I write to you personally because a) you declared that you won't return to SlayAlive and b) I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.

I want to apologize for being too harsh. When I posted that you hide behind hate letters it was a knee-jerk reaction of a fan who had been called a "rapist lover" many times in the past. And your words "Spike having raped Buffy" sounded to me like an official endorsement of another anti-Spike campaign.

Because you're not a fan and are able to evaluate characters objectively, I'm sure you agree with this: Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse.

But when you - one of the Powers That Be - single out Spike and start telling people off ("you wouldn't want that to happen to your sister?") to emphasise your point, it sounds like an official seal of your disapproval of the character.

I'm happy that you posted a disclaimer that you don't hate Spike, because Spike fans have been marginalized for a long time. But there are some details in your disclaimer that bother me.

You mention that you print almost every single letter you get. The problem is that I sent you a letter and many other Spike fans I know personally and online also sent letters and none of them were published. Could all of them be lost somewhere in cyberspace and only Spike-hating letters got through?

Anyway, I plan to send you a copy of this letter by snail-mail - hopefully it will end up in your hands.

Another statement that bothers me is that you "don't censor letters critical of the characters, because I don't need to protect the feelings of the characters."

But what about the feelings of your audience? By posting letters that attack fans' role models you hurt their feelings and challenge their beliefs.

I contribute to "Q&A" column of Russian movie magazine "Film" and rule #1 in our editorial office is to respect our readers and not to mock their role models no matter who they are. That's why I was so surprised at the selection of the letters you published, but maybe things are different in the world of comic books?

Anyway, I'm glad I was wrong about your motives.

I apologize again for being too harsh and I wish you all the best in your work.

Yours sincerely

And I've got his reply within hours:

Hi Lena,

I really never meant to single Spike out. That wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rather than me lashing out at Spike at random, I think everything I'd said was in response to specific points from readers, specific questions, and largely in reference to his relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's. You're right, none of the characters are innocent, especially Angel. He and Spike are both making amends for things they've done.

As for the letters I run—please note that we're still only on the letters responding to issue #6, I think. We're way behind, because we get so much mail every issue, and we do run almost all of it. The letters that don't get run are ones that I see as mean-spirited attacks on the creators—we get the occasional letter like that, and if I find it nasty, I don't use it. If it's just negative, without being nasty, I do use it. You know, it's possible that there were some letters responding to Shawler that attacked him. Maybe we didn't use those. I can see protecting the fans from each other in that way, but I don't remember. I could see us choosing not to use a letter that was nasty about Shawler, but I do think we ran letters arguing with him, in defense of Spike. I'm almost sure I have. In terms of negative mail, the most recent letter from Shawler himself was mostly about how bad the comic was, that #5 was the only one worth the money. I see one letter in my in box from you, about the Buffy tarot deck, from April. I don't see anything else from you. Your name's familiar enough that I feel like I HAVE run letters from you before, though.

"I don't censor letters critical of characters ..." You raise an interesting point, and the policy at Film makes a certain kind of sense—but if I censor readers' thoughts about the characters in the stories, what is there left to talk about? You can use the lettercol to debate those points. Otherwise, we'll be left with, "I love Joss, Jo's so great" ... I think your opinions about Joss's characters are exactly what the lettercol is for, and if that includes rants against characters, I think it's okay. If one of you attacks Spike, another can defend him—and again, I think that's happened. If one of you attacks Joss, or Georges, in a way I find harsh, none of us can respond in kind. Accusations about me hiding behind other people's letters, the weird maneuvering I was being accused of—I think someone said they hated the idea of me hanging out with Joss—what is that? All I can do is try to tell my side of it, but I can't engage in the same sort of personal criticisms, whether it's on the board or in the letter col. I guess if someone calls Shawler an idiot, he's free to reply that that person's an idiot, but that doesn't seem like a good use of the lettercol either.

I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?

Thanks for the letter. While I appreciate that one thread, I don't want to fuel the whole "I Support Scott Allie" thing anymore than you do—as though there was someone to support me against. I don't want that with Buffy fans, even if they've sworn off the book. The one thing we have in common is our love of these characters, so an online flame war is of no interest to me.

Scott

I asked Mr. Allie for a permission to post his letter and he gave it to me. So, here it is. I really, really hope that Spike won't be short-changed if PTB decide to make a crossover. I realise that my expectations may be too high because I'm spoiled by wonderful fanfiction I read all these years. There are days when I don't want to see Spike on BtVS because his reappearance will result in another wave of hate-mail similar to Shawler's rant.

Still, like kathyh said yesterday, watching a show without a favorite ship can be like watching a football tournament when your team has failed to qualify, you can appreciate and enjoy it but the passion isn't always there.

I'm going to send the link to this thread to Mr.Allie. Keep that in mind if\when you post comments and try to avoid harsh words.

Comments

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

*beams*

Thank you. It seems like you were watching the same show I was. Apparently, Mr. Allie was watching a different show.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

And there are absolutely no nuances in the comics. Admittedly, I've never been a big fan of comics, but I thought I'd give these a try. A part of the problem may be in the art, too. In reading the first few Buffy comics, I honestly could not recognize the same characters from pannel to pannel, which made following the story even more difficult. It took stormwreath's annotated recaps and summaries for me to even understand the plot. With so many extraneous potentials slayers murking things up, I rarely recognized Buffy in the mix, as she was drawn differently in each pannel, (as were each of the other characters.) Thank goodness Xander has an eyepatch and Giles has glasses and Willow wears Rennaissance Faire dresses and flies, or I'd really be lost! This is a problem in the type of story they are attempting to tell. So, my lack of appreciation for Jeanty's art may be a factor. But the story itself doesn't seem to be really interesting, either. So, I'm with you in that I'm not anxious to have Spike show up.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

I adore you, Kathleen!

[rahirah]

That's my primary reaction - he can't possibly be so naive as all that.

[eilowyn.livejournal.com]

To Lena (love the name!) and everyone else who has commented:

This is why I subscribe to this lj. I get the summary recap of the comics, fic recs, and a good overview of the current controversies discussed by thoughtful, rational people. This particular post in itself and its subsequent comments is just one more proof that this fandom has plenty of people whose opinions I respect. Lena, I would gladly have you proxy my vote on any fan issue for me, because I have no doubt you'd take the time to understand the situation so thoroughly that your endorsement would be enough. You available to do the same for the US Presidential election? I've already got a headache (hence the retreat to fandom . . .)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

And there are absolutely no nuances in the comics.

That's my impression as well. I read them and wondered if Joss has lost his creative streak. Then I read the script of Dollhouse pilot and it was a feast. Gripping story, well-defined characters, intriguing twists - I was totally captivated. Then again, maybe I enjoyed it so much because it was a text. I read it and I could mentally "see" what I read. And the pictures in my brain moved and talked, I could "hear" Eliza's voice with her typical inflections, I could "see" Tahmoh's reactions, I could easily project my own vision on the words on the page. But I can't make comics panels "move" no matter how hard I try. Maybe it's because I don't have any previous experience in comics.

my lack of appreciation for Jeanty's art may be a factor.

*sigh*

If only Jo Chen could do all the panels...

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I have the impression that fans can forgive continuity errors as long as believe in characters. After all, back in season 1 vampires had their "vampire souls" and nobody complained. People accepted that Glory, Jasmine and Illyria have different mindsets although all the three were anscient goddesses. And, as Angel spun off and became inavailable, Dru replaced him as Spike's sire. And it was OK.

Honestly, I don't mind Warren's resurrection. But I can't accept Buffy the Bank Robber. And I can't understand why on Earth Joss made her a robber. I still hope that that sooner or later he'll give a valid explanation, because his "Buffy needed money to install radar systems" is lame beyond measure.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks for kind words.

I'm hardly qualified to express my opinion on US Presidential elections because I live in Russia. I've never been to USA but I have great online friends who are Americans and I hope they'll elect a well-deserved and merited person.
*hugs*

[shapinglight]

I hope so too.

[pfeifferpack.livejournal.com]

*hugs back* You know it's returned too.

Kathleen

[elisi]

And there are absolutely no nuances in the comics.
And it's such a crying shame, because apparently his X-Men comics are great. 'After the Fall' (which is of course written by Brian Lynch, but with plenty of input from Joss) is (almost, something obviously gets lots in the medium transfer) as multi-layered and fascinating as the show. I wasn't expecting s8 to be great - but I *was* expecting more than crack!fic.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly!

And I have recently been thinking that maybe the fault isn't completely with me, and my lack of ability to follow the storyline without stormwreath's explanations. I've come to the conclusion that it isn't just my lack of familiarity with modern graphic novel style (I did read some comic books when I was a kid *cough Archie and Friends cough*, but they were essentially printed cartoons), because I had no trouble at all following Asylum. Storm suggested that I concentrate on the clothes in order to recognize the characters, but with the exception of really stand out clothes (such as Willow's 'Elmo' sweater, Tara's 'innards' shirt, Buffy's 'Surburban Mom' outfit in LW, and 'flood pants' in Into the Woods, and, of course Angelus' leather pants, because who wouldn't fixate on them?) I tend to look at faces, not clothes. The fact that there seems to be no continuity in the look of the faces in the comics really adds to my inabiity to follow the plot - which seems to move like molasses in January in the first place.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

I don't think Scott Allie really understands just how loaded his comment was. It must be pretty weird coming into a fan culture that's had years of discussion on the issue, and trying to express an opinion that you hope won't bring up any old arguments when you're not really sure what those old arguments WERE...

Yes, exactly! And the greatest "sin" to the Spike fans, was that it wasn't even factual. It was a throw-away line - "Spike having raped Buffy", as if that were an accepted fact. If he had just said "Spike having attempted to rape Buffy", I don't think the kerfuffle would have developed as it had. Although, more than one Spike fan could conceivably argue even the "attempted rape", and I, personally, saw him trying to connect with Buffy in the only way she allowed him to connect in the past - by his convincing her to engage in sexcapades after she had half-heartedly said "No" several times, and he didn't at first understand that this time she meant "No." And Mr. Allie then added, "and I'm happy to have anyone argue that with me", but I'm sure he wasn't prepared for the number of people who chose to do just that! Hopefully, he now understand just how loaded his comment really was, and will avoid the same in the future. Maybe he'll even go back and rewatch the episode with an open mind to actually see what happened on screen, including the nuances of Spike's facial expressions and his horror when he realized what he had almost done.

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

Buffy the Bank Robber

Oh, I had forgotten about that little tidbit. (Possibly intentionally blocked it from my mind, because I cannot find any possible way to reconcile "Buffy the Bank Robber" with my Buffy Anne Summers!) For fuck's sake, if she didn't go out robbing banks when she really needed money to pay the bills, keep the house going and keep Dawn out of foster care, but instead took a crappy, soul-destroying job at the Doublemeat Palace to make ends meet, and even refused Spike's offer to get her money because she figured his options wouldn't be completely above-board, I just can't see her throwing away all of her values to buy radar systems. *heavy sigh* Maybe Buffy hasn't yet awakened from her magically-induced coma, and that's another look-alike making these decisions? Although, that would be pretty lame, also, because coma? Been there, done that. Twice.

[bluekaty.livejournal.com]

Hi Moscow, I don't spend much time on the Internet or LJ these days but sometime I have a quick browse of my f-list and today I saw your post. I didn't read all the posts on "Slayalive" but enough to get an idea - I just wanted to say well-done for writing that letter to Scott Allie. I've been buying the Buffy comics (but not the Angel ones) and read them with not much enthusiasm ( I think it was "kathyh" whom you quoted above who expressed the matter in very precise terms). Since the beginning I've been perceiving "anti-Spike" vibes and I remember that letter in an issue of Season 8 very well - I was appalled and hurt that such letter, with so much venom and hatred was published, and I did wonder why such a letter had been published: my conclusion was that a message, loud and clear, was being sent to Spike fans and what I've learnt now about Scott Allie's attitude just confirms it. I am still buying (and paying a lot of money for) the comics out of inertia I guess (I have a subscription and I've got to cancel it) but I can't see myself carrying on much longer....
BTW lovely name
*hugs*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

*hugs back*

Looks like all the Spike fans get the same vibe from Dark Horse letter column. I also took the first anti-Spike letter as a message to us. When the second letter was published I lost the last of my illusions. I still read season 8 but I don't expect much. Hopefully Joss will give Buffy\Xander shippers what they want and after getting their dreams come true they stop being hostile and agressive. *shrugs*

Hi I'm new here

[(Anonymous)]

I've recently joined and wanted to introduce myself :)

Just wanted to say

[(Anonymous)]

Brilliant!

Brilliant page!

[(Anonymous)]

Perfect news.., man

thanks much

[(Anonymous)]

thanks much, guy

[enisy.livejournal.com]

I've been meaning to ask... Did you link Allie to this thread, after all? Did he reply?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Yes, I sent him this link and he replied that he doesn't want to enter the debates again. He was nice, civil, but, clearly, his opinion hadn't changed.

Cool page!

[(Anonymous)]

well done, man