Scott Allie Letter

[moscow_watcher]

Recent kerkuffle at SlayAlive forums regarding Spike crossing over to BtVS in season 8 prompted me to write to Scott Allie. He replied quickly with thoughtful letter and gave me the permission to post it.

Previously on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" SlayAlive forum:

June 8 Scott Allie posted at SlayAlive, replying to fans who accused him of disliking Spike and deliberately writing him out of comics back in 2001-2002. His post is here. In brief: he said that several technical problems kept DH from using Spike in later seasons and then wrote about "Spike having raped Buffy" - words, that, I have to admit, made me mad.

I posted a harsh reply: "Why can't you honestly admit you dislike the character, mr. Allie? Why do you hide behind Spike-hating letters in "Slay the critics" column?" I wasn't reading comics back in 2002 and my main concern was DH printing Spike-hating letters in season 8, like this one (I post it here only because it's relevant to our correspondence)



When I brought up this letter, the discussion on SlayAlive became heated. The next day Scott Allie posted another explanation - and I realised that my posts were harsh and uncalled for. So I wrote him

Dear Mr. Allie,

I am a member of SlayAlive forum, my fandom name is Moscow Watcher and I was one of the posters in the now-notorious discussion regarding your attitude to Spike.

I write to you personally because a) you declared that you won't return to SlayAlive and b) I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.

I want to apologize for being too harsh. When I posted that you hide behind hate letters it was a knee-jerk reaction of a fan who had been called a "rapist lover" many times in the past. And your words "Spike having raped Buffy" sounded to me like an official endorsement of another anti-Spike campaign.

Because you're not a fan and are able to evaluate characters objectively, I'm sure you agree with this: Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse.

But when you - one of the Powers That Be - single out Spike and start telling people off ("you wouldn't want that to happen to your sister?") to emphasise your point, it sounds like an official seal of your disapproval of the character.

I'm happy that you posted a disclaimer that you don't hate Spike, because Spike fans have been marginalized for a long time. But there are some details in your disclaimer that bother me.

You mention that you print almost every single letter you get. The problem is that I sent you a letter and many other Spike fans I know personally and online also sent letters and none of them were published. Could all of them be lost somewhere in cyberspace and only Spike-hating letters got through?

Anyway, I plan to send you a copy of this letter by snail-mail - hopefully it will end up in your hands.

Another statement that bothers me is that you "don't censor letters critical of the characters, because I don't need to protect the feelings of the characters."

But what about the feelings of your audience? By posting letters that attack fans' role models you hurt their feelings and challenge their beliefs.

I contribute to "Q&A" column of Russian movie magazine "Film" and rule #1 in our editorial office is to respect our readers and not to mock their role models no matter who they are. That's why I was so surprised at the selection of the letters you published, but maybe things are different in the world of comic books?

Anyway, I'm glad I was wrong about your motives.

I apologize again for being too harsh and I wish you all the best in your work.

Yours sincerely

And I've got his reply within hours:

Hi Lena,

I really never meant to single Spike out. That wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rather than me lashing out at Spike at random, I think everything I'd said was in response to specific points from readers, specific questions, and largely in reference to his relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's. You're right, none of the characters are innocent, especially Angel. He and Spike are both making amends for things they've done.

As for the letters I run—please note that we're still only on the letters responding to issue #6, I think. We're way behind, because we get so much mail every issue, and we do run almost all of it. The letters that don't get run are ones that I see as mean-spirited attacks on the creators—we get the occasional letter like that, and if I find it nasty, I don't use it. If it's just negative, without being nasty, I do use it. You know, it's possible that there were some letters responding to Shawler that attacked him. Maybe we didn't use those. I can see protecting the fans from each other in that way, but I don't remember. I could see us choosing not to use a letter that was nasty about Shawler, but I do think we ran letters arguing with him, in defense of Spike. I'm almost sure I have. In terms of negative mail, the most recent letter from Shawler himself was mostly about how bad the comic was, that #5 was the only one worth the money. I see one letter in my in box from you, about the Buffy tarot deck, from April. I don't see anything else from you. Your name's familiar enough that I feel like I HAVE run letters from you before, though.

"I don't censor letters critical of characters ..." You raise an interesting point, and the policy at Film makes a certain kind of sense—but if I censor readers' thoughts about the characters in the stories, what is there left to talk about? You can use the lettercol to debate those points. Otherwise, we'll be left with, "I love Joss, Jo's so great" ... I think your opinions about Joss's characters are exactly what the lettercol is for, and if that includes rants against characters, I think it's okay. If one of you attacks Spike, another can defend him—and again, I think that's happened. If one of you attacks Joss, or Georges, in a way I find harsh, none of us can respond in kind. Accusations about me hiding behind other people's letters, the weird maneuvering I was being accused of—I think someone said they hated the idea of me hanging out with Joss—what is that? All I can do is try to tell my side of it, but I can't engage in the same sort of personal criticisms, whether it's on the board or in the letter col. I guess if someone calls Shawler an idiot, he's free to reply that that person's an idiot, but that doesn't seem like a good use of the lettercol either.

I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?

Thanks for the letter. While I appreciate that one thread, I don't want to fuel the whole "I Support Scott Allie" thing anymore than you do—as though there was someone to support me against. I don't want that with Buffy fans, even if they've sworn off the book. The one thing we have in common is our love of these characters, so an online flame war is of no interest to me.

Scott

I asked Mr. Allie for a permission to post his letter and he gave it to me. So, here it is. I really, really hope that Spike won't be short-changed if PTB decide to make a crossover. I realise that my expectations may be too high because I'm spoiled by wonderful fanfiction I read all these years. There are days when I don't want to see Spike on BtVS because his reappearance will result in another wave of hate-mail similar to Shawler's rant.

Still, like kathyh said yesterday, watching a show without a favorite ship can be like watching a football tournament when your team has failed to qualify, you can appreciate and enjoy it but the passion isn't always there.

I'm going to send the link to this thread to Mr.Allie. Keep that in mind if\when you post comments and try to avoid harsh words.

Comments

[elisi]

Moscow, I adore you! :)

[frenchani.livejournal.com]

I was clueless about the kermachin since I don't read the comics but I support your reasoning.

And your name is Lena, you're meant to lead a revolution, my dear !!!!

BTW I thought of you a few days ago when I watched Mikhalkov's Soleil Trompeur (I don't know the title in Russian).

[ruuger]

That's a very good letter, and thanks for sending it - hopefully he'll understand why so many people have been insulted by his words. I thought about sending him an email as well, but decided against it since I'm not a member of the forum and don't care about the comics anymore - although I am thinking of organising a Scott Allie Commemorative Spuffy Ficathon just out of spite ;D

[petzipellepingo.livejournal.com]

Thank you for sending that lovely letter.

[shapinglight]

It's a great letter, Moscow, and his reply makes me feel a little better about this business. At least you've given him some idea why people still get so upset about this and react passionately as a consequence.

[enisy.livejournal.com]

Thanks for doing this, Moscow. I feel a sudden urge to lock my Allie-related thread after this, since it's obvious he's checking it, but I'll resist. :P

The letter does improve things a bit, but I'm still seeing the double standards. "Angel and Spike are both making amends for things they've done", but Allie's comments on the attempted rape were "largely in reference to Spike's relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's"? So, what, is Angel/Buffy superior to Spike/Buffy because he just tried to kill her instead of trying to rape her? Political correctness FTW.

In retrospect, most of my comments on Allie's possible influence on Joss were partly knee-jerk reactions and partly group mentality, but also had something to do with this:

Joss Whedon: The Angel/Cordelia [love story] had gone pretty much as far as we wanted to take it. Their romance was definitely not a popular move on our part, and I think with most fans.

Angel/Cordelia is one of my least favourite 'ships, but even so, I don't think it's unpopular "with most fans" -- I think that was just an assumption Joss made based on his creative's team's negativity towards it. So yeah, I did worry that he was going to make a similar assumption about Spike/Buffy based on constant exposure to Allie and Jeanty.

But instead of jumping 'ship, I pretty much jumped fandom a few days ago -- at least temporarily -- so I'm no longer bristling over Allie's comments. I do still think it's very nice of him to interact with us and (try to) clear various misconceptions; he should just be careful about giving his stamp of approval to opinions that have been drilled into us for years by the same people who label us "rapist lovers".

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

I'm not on that forum, but heard about the kerffle on LJ. It is a very nice letter, but maybe he could've been a bit better at explaining himself in a fan forum.

Yes he might not know how heated these debates could get (must avoid his one message board at Dark Horse then), but it all could so easily be avoided in the first place.

Well done on your own letter, and having the guts to send it by snail-mail.

You have a lovely name!

[slaymesoftly.livejournal.com]

A nicely done apology and, it seems, a sincere reply. It seems this could be put on "this week's kerfuffle - it's over and done with" shelf. I'm sorry to have seen him refer to Seeing Red as "Spike rapes Buffy", but clearly many others have responded already and he has realized that he was in error.

I really think the Spuffy vs Bangel thing is too emotional an issue for most fans for there to ever be a rational discussion about it. If one loves the characters, one is passionate about one pairing or the other and that makes it difficult to be objective about other points of view. Which is why I tend avoid threads and forums that discuss it.

[deird1]

Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world.
Thank you! I've been trying to figure out what it was I wanted to say to the Spike-is-a-rapist crowd for ages, and this is it exactly.

The thing is, the attempted rape gets used as an excuse for disliking Spike, when really they just... dislike Spike.
And while I don't really get why someone would dislike Spike at all, I'd still be much happier if they'd defend their opinion that Spike sucks, rather than claiming to be morally superior because I'm supporting a rapist.

I don't think Scott Allie really understands just how loaded his comment was. It must be pretty weird coming into a fan culture that's had years of discussion on the issue, and trying to express an opinion that you hope won't bring up any old arguments when you're not really sure what those old arguments WERE...

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

Well done, Moscow! I think it was a good letter and you got a decent and sincere answer.
I find it pretty natural to be involved and very passionate about 'our' ships and beloved characters when we believe there has been something negative and deeply disturbing said.

[erykah101.livejournal.com]

Not again. *sigh* Round and round we go again. (my personal last word on Season 6 is here so that I don't have to keep re-typing it!). I understand totally why all my fellow Spike fans get so frustrated by it but we do ourselves no favours by lashing out at people who disagree with us. We just end up cementing the - incorrect - image of the crazy Spike fans and give them an excuse to dismiss us our legitimate complaints.

Moscow, your letter was great at explaining that frustration. Thank you for that.

My own feeling is that if there is a strong purposeful story arc for Spike in season 8, then he should be there. If there isn't, then he shouldn't. I don't want him to appear just for a namecheck. I'm a Spuffy believer- always will be - but if they genuinely feel that relationship has no where to go, then I don't want mere half-hearted lipservice given to it.

Bangel ended because the writers painted themselves into a corner and had nowhere else to go with it. The shippers never got that and continually brought the batshit crazy because of it. I don't want us to be like them and the wording of some responses on those threads makes me worry that we're turning into them.

[frelling-tralk.livejournal.com]

Thanks for posting this :) I also bristled a little at the "would you let your little sister date Spike", whilst endorsing Buffy/Angel, even when Angel was set up as the original bad boyfriend

It's double standards being applied to Spike and his fans again, and I tire of the attempted rape being brought into every discussion with Spike/Buffy, whilt ignoring how Joss himself choose to portray Spuffy together in season 7. Seeing Red's bathroom scene should not be the final word on Spuffy when episodes like Showtime, Potential, Storyteller, Touched, and Chosen were all clearly romantic images for them after that scene. Judging the entire relationship on the attempted rape is as fair as judging the whole of the Buffy/Angel relationship on Angelus mocking Buffy over her virginity in Innocence, or judging Willow/Tara entirely on the mind wipe from All The Way. Characters and relationships will go through journey's in the Jossverse

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

That was a lovely letter, Lena (I love your name!)

I can understand if Scott likes Angel more than Spike, it is a matter of taste after all, we all like different characters. Even Joss has a favorite character: Willow. I'm sure whatever Scott thinks of Spike won't affect how Spike would be written when he appears in S8 (fingers crossed for a Spike guest star) because he's just the editor. Joss and the other writers are the ones who affect the story, not Scott. Even Marti Noxon was justified by Joss that whatever she wrote, he was the one to agree with it, and if the later seasons didn't meet up with people's expectations, then it's Joss' fault.

Character-bashing is an awful, awful thing in my book whoever that character was (unless it's a villain like Warren) and sadly, it's been a massive Spike-hate over there in SlayAlive after the latest incident. I was pointing out to someone that he can't call Spike a rapist, murderer after he got a soul and he replied that he's entitled to his opinion, I was like, "Oooookay, you're that type of fan." :) You can't reason with a biased hater no matter what you did. *shrug*

[ntshpp.livejournal.com]

Привет.

Ух ты, вы так запросто переписываетесь с этими субчиками. Невероятно. :)

Когда будет (если вообще будет) обзор 8.15?

Кстати, я совсем перестал скачивать и читать эту муру. Моё мнение о Ведоне пошатнулось навсегда, да и весь этот всеобщий культ имени его был большой глупостью. он может быть талантливый организатор, но его репутация как автора сильно преувеличена - комикс это доказал.

[kathyh]

Excellent letter and a decent response from him.

This whole kerfuffle just cements my view that it's really a mistake for members of the creative team to interact with fans too much. Their viewpoint and ours are very different and things just get too heated too quickly. BtVS is not the first fandom this happens in and I'm pretty sure it won't be the last.

[mere-ubu.livejournal.com]

*holds lighter aloft* You rawk, darling! Thanks both for writing that letter and then being so good as to share it and Mr. Allie's response with us.

[spikes-stylist.livejournal.com]

"I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?"

The thing is after looking at what went on on those Slay alive threads just now, I have to say that I find it odd that a professional editor finds it necessary to come onto (of all places) a fan forum and try and readdress what he thinks in an unbalanced view of his approach to certain characters. Because when a person does that, are they not going to leave themselves open to criticism about their beliefs that they may not want to hear? In an environment where heated debate can often end up being the norm?

After reading his reply to you I'm sure he had perfectly good intentions, and I applaud him for replying to you so quickly (many people wouldn't have of done that's for sure), but as a damage limitation exercise I don't believe it worked as well as it could have really.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

Thank you for posting this. I'm glad this whole thing is calming down again.

I liked the way you explained things in your letter, without loosing it despite the circumstances.

Also glad, Allie seems to be not a complete jerk, even if I can't help wondering how he could really be surprised at the instant shipping war his words caused.

[shipperx.livejournal.com]

One thing that consistently bothers me is that it's treated as though Spike's actions happened in a vacuum. Not only are the histories of other characters never mentioned in order to reflect the general magnitude of mistakes made in the Whedonverse (Willow skinning a man alive then trying to destroy the world, mindwiping Tara to force her to stay with her, Angel's raping Dru and Holtz's wife 'repeatedly', his threatening to rape Fred, Angel murdering Jenny, Xander nearly raping Buffy in "The Pack", Anya's history, Buffy's inappropriate woman-on-top 'couseling' with a minor in "Him", etc.) but not even the direct contributory context such as Buffy's violent tendencies in Season 6 most definitely including the alley beating with its undertone of domestic abuse (and the all-too-easy dismissal of it in "Older and Far Away"), the way that inviso-sex in "Gone" happened, etc. I certainly don't mean to imply that Buffy "deserved" what happened in "Seeing Red" (that would be obscene and stupid), but to strategically ignore the context within which "Seeing Red" happened is woefully simplistic. Not to mention divorcing the actions from A) a soulless vampire's nature and B) the consequences and his subsequent choices (i.e. leaving, being horrified, and going on the soul-quest.) All of these things are context that matter to one degree or another. Certainly to what degree is debatable, but to remove it entirely from debate (which Allie's response did by reacting as though there is only one defensible response for a viewer to have) is to reduce it to a singular. Not only that, but to reduce it to a one-sided singular of Spike's actions only is reductive to the point of missing a great deal of the story and/or overlooking a great many of the emotional layers of the story.

:sigh: It's not new, however.

One thing I had wanted to post in response to his post, (but hadn't bothered) was that his post reflected one aspect of my dissatisfaction with the Season 8 comics. While on a basic plot level there is some connection to Season 7 (we are still subjected to a parade of Potentials, unfortunately. And Xander does have an eyepatch), on an emotional level I've rarely felt that Season 8 works as an organic outgrowth of where the characters ended in Season 7. In many respects it feels like the series is a reboot such the characters choices and bad behaviors in Season 6 never existed (except Spike's because Spike's bad bahavior always matters) and that what few ways these issues were addressed in Season 7 have also ceased to have any on-going meaning (and forget the fall out of Season 7 being dealt with because Anya won't be mourned and we'll never know if Buffy even gave a damn over Spike's 'death' or if she believed she meant (even for a moment) the "I love you." ) I've accepted this, but it has led me to an emotional disconnect from the comics. This feels lika a slightly-different version of the characters who are in some AU where Seasons 6 & 7 mostly didn't happen. Which is fine, I suppose. It's Joss's story and he can handle or ignore whatever issues he chooses. But it's also why I'm glad that Angel and Spike cannot make appearances, and why I'm far more emotionally satisfied with AtS Season 6. "After the Fall" at least strives to connect to where AtS ended and to explain how the characters got to where they are in the comics. Anyway, when Allie's summation took little if any note of the changes in the relationship during Season 7, rightly or wrongly, this related to one of my greatest criticisms of Season 8 - it feels more like a reboot than a sequel.

Anyway, glad you wrote Allie. I have wanted to write him myself, but I am lazy. I'm glad you take more initiative in these matters than I do. :)

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Kudos, Moscow!

Yes, there are topics which are very sensitive, and I agree that fans and professionals should only mix very carefully. There's more burden placed on a professional, a person "in power" in fandom, to tred carefully, to not press the sore spots thoughtlessly and needlessly. Those inflammatory remarks just carry so much more weight coming from those persons.

If someone wants to converse with fans on fandom topics (like chatting about who's better for Buffy, or who's better - Spike or Angel etc.), as a fan, and enjoy a total freedom of debate, I'd advice doing it under a different user name, i.e. undercover.

And Moscow, Enisy - now you've made me see your point about authors being influenced by other people in the creative team who don't like a particular 'ship or character. Hmm. I still believe it won't be the case with Buffy-8, which is all planned beforehand and which is not about 'ships anyway. And the reply from Mr. Allie is very much appreciated.

[gillo]

Good letter. I haven't been paying all that much attention to the comics, mainly because I find the medium way too slow for the characters I know and love in live-action mode, but also because they don't seem to be developing from S7 in ways I find interesting - not even a nod to the losses in Chosen, for instance. However, I've seen enough to feel shipper wars are being encouraged, tacitly or not, possibly for sales purposes. It doesn't do a lot to sustain trust, and his reply, while it might be a very good fan-to-fan defence, doesn't read as professionally as one might have wanted. Isn't it just a little ingenuous to suggest all this is astonishing?

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I hope that Scott is reading this, sense he's abandoned those forums--not that I blame him in the least.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents--Spike shouldn't be in the comics, nor should Angel. The only way that Spuffy works is in fan fiction (and even there it can sometimes miss the the mark). The only time that Bangel works is never. Why? Because Buffy could never fully appreciate or fully love Spike, and Angel could never see Buffy for all that she truly was, and vice versa on that same token. Buffy is yet to be a baked cookie, and I personally don't care when that happens. She's still "experimenting" or whatever, and taking care of her own selfish needs, not caring if it hurts a person who loves her. This is a big friggin' repeat, and she clearly has not learned any kind of lesson.

So yes, please don't have Spike or Angel cross over--neither is Buffy's true love. And call be crazy, but if we're talking purely canon here, the best pairing in this crazy triangle is Spike and Angel or Spangel. They had the best chemistry and, believe it or not, the *healthiest* relationship between the three pairings. Or Cordelia and Angel, but of course, that was all shot to shit in s4, and unnecessarily so.

The only person, well, the first person to make Angel really smile, come out of his shell, and stop being so uptight was Cordelia. They brought out the best in each other, and it was sad to see her character massacred beyond recognition, and the audience being cheated out of their potential relationship. It could've ended sadly, but we didn't even really get an official start.

So yeah, let the boys stay with IDW. It's safer and saner that way, IMHO.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

If he had just not said "Spike raped Buffy". If only that. *sigh*

However, whatever his true feelings for Spike - whether or not he considers Spike a neat character, a monster, or just a cash cow, I hope beyond hope that both boys stay far away from Buffy S8 or S9 or Season Infinity. For me, Joss has well and truly ruined Buffy. She's no longer the girl I loved and admired, and she's not worthy of either vampire.

[cordykitten]

Because I don't follow the comics (except the spoilers that I can read on LJ) I don't know much about the kerfuffle.
Reading your entry was interesting; I'm glad you wrote this letter. (I like especially that part tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse. Your letter was a good 'summary' for me, not having read the forum. And not knowing the comics (and not planning too).

[spikendru.livejournal.com]

Oh, thank you for sharing this.

I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed.

Apparently, he still doesn't get it. It was this comment, in his own words - not taken out of context, that upset me (and I'm sure the majority of pro-Spike people who tried to engage him in dialogue on the thread):

The comments I've made about Spike having raped Buffy—and I'm happy to have anyone argue that with me—were made in response to the question of Buffy + Angel or Buffy + Spike. Yes, it is my opinion that Angel is her true love, and that every relationship that followed, including Spike—and Satsu, and Riley—pale in comparison to her love of Angel. This is a matter of opinion. I know some fans agree; I know some feel the opposite. The fact that Spike did what he did to her on that bathroom floor, to me, reflects on his love of her. If your sister met with that treatment at the hands of her boyfriend, would you judge? I think you would.

There is a big difference between an attempted action and a completed action. Spike attempted to engage in the type of sexcapades they hade been having for months, during which time, Buffy repeatedly said 'No", when she actually meant "Convince me". When SOULLESS Spike realized that this time, she really meant "No", he immediately stopped and felt shame and guilt - rather unprecedented for an unsouled vampire, wouldn't you think? Mr. Allie's throw-away line discussing "comments I've made about Spike having raped Buffy", were the words - and the attitude which those words implied - that infuriated fans.

The fact that Spike did what he did to her on that bathroom floor, to me, reflects on his love of her. Yes, Mr. Allie, it certainly does reflect on his love for her. The fact that Spike did what her did - when he realized she meant "No", he stopped. He stopped and left in shame, and went to earn back his soul to be the kind of man who would never inadvertently do that again, because he realized that he made a mistake and he didn't currently possess the moral compass he hoped his soul would give him. To go through all that - he must really have loved her, right, Mr. Allie?