(no subject)

[moscow_watcher]

The issue starts with Wesley and Fred in their own brand oh heaven. We already saw a glimpse of this heaven in the beginning of AHITW: they are happy together, they fight evil and relax in between fights. But here Wesley quickly realises it's an illusion created by W&H. As soon as he gets it "Fred" transforms into a Random W&H Employee (according to Lynch, "Wolfram & Hart were tempting Wesley with the promise of his lady, so they were just going for some symbolic imagery") and recruits Wesley by promising him to get Fred back. Ghost!Wesley steps from a gilded cage/pocket dimension/whatever place they are into the ruined LA. Random W&H Employee speaks with Invisible Voice who reveals that "Wesley is the reason we'll win".

Meanwhile, Connor gets saved by vigilante Kate Lockley who brings him to her flat stacked with weapons. She repeats to him famous Angel's words: "If nothing we do matters then all that matters is what we do" and leaves. Connor, upon pondering on her words, decides to act.

Meanwhile, Betta George reads the mind of his guards and pictures three identically clad girls fighting beasties in a basement. Looks like it's a training session and the girls are slayers...

TBC...

The more I reread Wesley's story the more cryptic it looks. I only can speculate that, somehow, his journey is connected to that of Illyria who may have some hidden powers even she doesn't know about. Or it is all about Fred now. It started with a girl, remember?

My theory is that W&H knows something about Fred\Illyria and wants to control Illyria's transformations into Fred by using Wesley. Because it was Wesley who invoked Fred in Illyria for the first time (in NFA) and it was his appearance that triggered her transformation in issue 5.

I understands that it's a tricky moment. Here I had a very interesting discussion with beer_good_foamy who thinks that it wasn't Fred who talked to dying Wesley in NFA. Although her phrase "Do you want me to lie to you now?" suggests it was still Illyria, I can't shake off the impression that a moment later something happens - something she can't control - and Fred awakens in her. Maybe I have this impression because we see Fred's hand first and her face later. Hands imagery has always been the sign of supreme truth in Jossverse. Maybe it's because she cries, and tears are sacred in Jossverse (Andrew's tears closed the seal of Danzaltar.) Maybe because Fred existing in Illyria was planned from the very beginning. Fred's last words in AHITW - "why can't I stay?" are a very obvious set-up. Anyway, the scene in NFA is ambivalent per ce, and with comics confirming that there is Fred in Illyria's body it becomes even more ironic (sometimes white lies become the ultimate truth).

So, maybe by keeping ghost!Wesley around Senior Partners hope to use him as a trigger to invoke Fred and suppress Illyria in the right place and time. But it's just a guess.

It was nice to have Kate back. She's an underdeveloped character with great potential. I suspect Joss had more plans for her, but changed them after Sense and Sensibility. He always makes kind of exams for his new actors to test their abilities before he decides to proceed or not to proceed with their characters. Elisabeth Rohm's exam was Kate's big emotional scene in S&S where she was... well... meriocre. Not particularly bad - but imagine what could Sarah or Alyson do in that scene. Or Eliza. Or Amy. Anyway, after this episode Kate got relegated to background and then left. But, obviously, Joss had interesting ideas about her and looks like Connor's story here is servicing Kate's big entrance. I can't believe that a man who grew up in Quor'toth got paralysed by fear when hell broke loose in LA.

But the scene where Kate quotes Angel without naming him fully makes up for this inconsistensy. It's the ultimate emotional punch, simple, efficient and heart-wrenching, passing the baton, continuing the fight. It's the moment that made me cry. Very Jossian.

And the idea of the slayers who are training in Gunn's basement is brilliantly unsettling. I immediately recalled the scene in the slayer school in issue 5 of BtVS where girls are "studying" a chained vampire. I may be wrong, but - are these slayers members of Gunn's team? They all have the same outfits - functional combat outfits. And they have stakes. There are three slayers on the panel. If there are 1800 slayers in 6,600 mln of Earth population, then at least 4 (or even 5) of them should live in LA with its 18 mln. population. I wonder if they're Gunn's allies, his "secret weapon".

So far, Lynch gave us more questions than answers. And each issue ups the ante. The final revelation was truly surprising. Can't wait for the next issue!

Comments

[elisi]

V. interesting thoughts! Don't have much to add, except this:

I can't believe that a man who grew up in Quor'toth got paralysed by fear when hell broke loose in LA.
I don't think it's fear. I think it's more that he just regained *all* his memories, and is utterly confused about who & what he is - look at Wesley at the end of 'Origin' talking to Illyria. All the memories are obviously all jumbled up still, and (as demonstrated by the hilarious 'Father #1 would do this, Father #2 would do that etc.' he is attempting to sort it all out and work out what to do and how to act. (Must run, or I'd love to delve more.)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I think it's more that he just regained *all* his memories, and is utterly confused about who & what he is - look at Wesley at the end of 'Origin' talking to Illyria.

Most likely you're right and it's about confusion, not fear. I think it's not particularly plausible from a psychological standpoint: a person who grew up as a hunter and a predator wouldn't rationalize in an extreme situation - he'd act on instinct. But I suppose we're to suspense our disbelief here, because Connor's thoughts about three fathers are really funny. :)

[elisi]

he'd act on instinct
I think the problem is that he has too many instincts - we see him acting on pure instinct in 'Origin', but that was a very specific situation and easily dealt with. Here *the world* has changed, which is a lot more difficult to deal with - does he act as though he's in hell or what?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I think the problem is that he has too many instincts - we see him acting on pure instinct in 'Origin', but that was a very specific situation and easily dealt with. Here *the world* has changed, which is a lot more difficult to deal with - does he act as though he's in hell or what?

I think the survival instincts are always kicking in, especially if people have certain experience. Several minutes earlier Connor fought Hamilton in NFA and was OK with it.
*ponders*
Well, this objection is valid only if we regard the situation from RL standpoint. But as a plot twist it works great.

[elisi]

Several minutes earlier Connor fought Hamilton in NFA and was OK with it.
Still - a single foe, in a known environment. Not an *army* in town-turned-hell.

[flake-sake.livejournal.com]

And the idea of the slayers who are training in Gunn's basement is brilliantly unsettling. I immediately recalled the scene in the slayer school in issue 5 of BtVS where girls are "studying" a chained vampire. I may be wrong, but - are these slayers members of Gunn's team?
Yes that scene sprung to my mind too. I can't be sure of course, but I think it might very well be that he has some kind of agreement with them. It would even fit with his delusion that he is actually the good guy. Of course they might be dead by now too, but either way I can't wait to find out how he came across them, hopefully the Gunn issue will answer some questions here.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I think it might very well be that he has some kind of agreement with them.

Quite possible. They may be not members of his team but his allies. I wonder what kind of evil could force vampires and slayers work together. What common enemy they coud have?

Then again, maybe it's just another "suspension of disbelief" moment.

It would even fit with his delusion that he is actually the good guy.

Oh, sure. I suppose it could be particularly thrilling to him to have slayers as allies after The Council refused to help when Fred was dying.

[shapinglight]

Interesting review.

To be honest, it never occurred to me until now that it could be anyone but Illyria in Wesley's death scene in NFA, but now you've said it, I find I'm not so sure as I was. Hmm.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Interesting review.

Thanks!

To be honest, it never occurred to me until now that it could be anyone but Illyria in Wesley's death scene in NFA, but now you've said it, I find I'm not so sure as I was. Hmm.

I have the impression that the scene had been conceived as romantic and cathartic. A ultimate tearjerker. The Romeo-and-Juliette mis-en-scene, the music - everything works as the coda of Fred\Wesley love story. Beer_good_foamy thinks the scene is meant to show that Wesley accepts a lie, but I can't agree that writers wanted to end his journey on such note. His story was heroic and romantic and the I think Joss wanted to give him (and Fred) a fitting ending.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Beer_good_foamy thinks the scene is meant to show that Wesley accepts a lie, but I can't agree that writers wanted to end his journey on such note.

Why not? Lies aren't evil in the Buffyverse. Sometimes a lie can be better than the truth - it helps you live in the world, or in this case, depart from it in peace. Buffy learned it six years earlier:

BUFFY: Does it ever get easy?
GILES: You mean life?
BUFFY: Yeah. Does it get easy?
GILES: What do you want me to say?
BUFFY: Lie to me.
GILES: Yes, it's terribly simple. The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.
BUFFY: Liar.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Why not? Lies aren't evil in the Buffyverse. Sometimes a lie can be better than the truth - it helps you live in the world, or in this case, depart from it in peace. Buffy learned it six years earlier:

Yes, sure, but Lie to Me hadn't been intended as the final chapter in a romantic love story.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

No, just as one of the major philosophical points of the entire 'verse. :-)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Touché.

[elisi]

Beer_good_foamy thinks the scene is meant to show that Wesley accepts a lie
Just wanted to jump in and say that I agree with you. That's also how I've always seen the scene - not as Fred emerging as herself, but as Illyria beginning to understand/gain humanity ('I feel grief. I cannot seem to control it.'). In TGiQ of course she wants to continue to explore her 'human' side, but Wesley won't allow it.

And speaking of lies, there is also Connor's "You can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all." at the end of Home - except of course that Angel's love isn't a lie. I think the Wesley/Illyria situation parallels this. I don't think Wesley could accept love from Illyria, and it's doubtful if she'd know how to express it, so in 'the lie' the hidden truth is revealed. (Huh. Never thought about it like that before, but I like it. Also shades of 'I love you'/'No you don't'...)

(Have you read 'Man's Best Friend' btw? It tackles Illyria's dual nature in the most *fascinating* way.)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

And speaking of lies, there is also Connor's "You can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all." at the end of Home - except of course that Angel's love isn't a lie.

Exactly, and it's that love that allows him to let Connor go and live a normal life, which is - everyone together now - a lie. :-)

Have you read 'Man's Best Friend' btw?

Nope - one of yours?

[elisi]

which is - everyone together now - a lie. :-)
Hee! Seriously though, I don't *want* it to be Fred in that scene. It would make no sense, and cheapen the moment. The fact that this Hellgod, who sees humankind as nothing more than vermin, cares to such an extent that she will fulfill a dying man's dream... that is far more impressive than love. (This is why straight-forward love stories never do much for me. I mean they're *nice*, but...)

Nope - one of yours?
Goodness no - it's by tkp, and it is just... astonishing. Still a WIP (and it might never be finished), but honestly that doesn't matter. It's Spike, Angel, Nina, Illyria and a puppy (with various other characters popping up) post-NFA and you have to read it! You can find it here

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

that is far more impressive than love.

You know that particular phrase made me think about my attitude to the show. And I decided that I regard AtS from BtVS positions. On BtVS love reigns supreme. It's the ultimate truth: "Love. Give. Forgive". On AtS love doesn't rule the world. This show is about fight against evil, about loyalty and betrayal, about humanity and the ultimate meaning of life.

So, yes, maybe Wesley\Fred story was there to highlight Illyria's illumination.

[deird1]

Hmm. I've always thought of Illyria as we see her in season 5 as being basically a fusion of pure-OldOne-Illyria and pure-Fred. While Illyria would never even contemplate it, she's sort of merged souls with Fred.
So in that final NFA scene, it's almost like Fred and Illyria are pretty much both there, both grieving for Wesley...

(This sounds so weird now that I'm actually writing it down.)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hmmm.... interesting speculation, I never thought about such option. Illyria's soul is that of a warrior. If new!Fred gets the soul of a warrior, she may undergo big changes. Analytical mind of a scientist plus daring, ruthless soul of a warrior may produce very unusual results.

I think it's definitely a possibility. I suppose that initially Joss just wanted to give Amy something to flex her acting muscles (I think he often gets inspiration from his actors). But later, when the show got canceles, the characters got lifes of her own. So I think Fred\Illyria storyline will be very compelling - and your theory is very Jossian.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

And speaking of lies, there is also Connor's "You can't be saved by a lie. You can't be saved at all." at the end of Home - except of course that Angel's love isn't a lie. I think the Wesley/Illyria situation parallels this. I don't think Wesley could accept love from Illyria, and it's doubtful if she'd know how to express it, so in 'the lie' the hidden truth is revealed. (Huh. Never thought about it like that before, but I like it. Also shades of 'I love you'/'No you don't'...)

Fascinating parallel. Maybe Joss has intentionally made the Wesley\Fredliria scene ambiguous to make us argue the way we still argue about ILY/NYDBTFSI? :)

[shapinglight]

You could be right at that. It's possible we might find out, I suppose, since whatever Brian writes in the comic has been okayed by Joss.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

I suspect that when Illyria is Fred, she is weaker. That the Senior Partners suspect Illyria might make a play to win in a Hell Dimension (he/she was a hell god) might mean she it the biggest danger. But Wes could be the trigger to take her back to the Fred persona, and weaken her. Then could see her 'burdened' by Freds emotions.

With Kate, I kind of suspect if she is used later, she will be a loose cannon. She was in the police force, and got suspended, so that would be a continuation of her story line.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I suspect that when Illyria is Fred, she is weaker.

I agree, it's the most probable reason why SP are interested in Wesley. But, given Lynch's love for twists, it may be quite the opposite. Fot example, Fred's scientific knowledge is crucial for getting things back to normal, so SP try to keep Wesley tied to W&H building because they don't want him to meet Fred.

With Kate, I kind of suspect if she is used later, she will be a loose cannon. She was in the police force, and got suspended, so that would be a continuation of her story line.

Hmmm. It occurred to me that right now Kate seems to be the only regular human character, if we don't count Angel - who is enhanced with his glamor mojo and has a vampire experience. I'd love to see them talking about the advantages and disadvantages of humanity.

[http://users.livejournal.com/woman_of_/]

so SP try to keep Wesley tied to W&H building because they don't want him to meet Fred.
Well Wes can move about, if the SP did want to keep him tied to the W&H building I am sure they could. Will be interesting to see how it pans out! Thinking about it, Joss wanted Amy to have a major role, and there is no reason he couldn't transfer that to the comic. So either Illyria or Fred could be what everything hinges on!

I'd love to see them talking about the advantages and disadvantages of humanity.

Sounds good, but she is not with Connor now, so I suspect she is going to be a lone wolf now. Not what someone from her police background would normally do, but Kate has been let down so much, she might!

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Nice review! A few points:

It started with a girl, remember?

Excellent point - though I still feel there's more than the alloted amount of "damsel in distress" about that if it turns out that the whole comic will be about saving Fred. But... we'll see.

Fred awakens in her

And I still disagree. :-) That scene is a lot more powerful if it's a logical part of Illyria's arc over the last few episodes and right up until her final scene in NFA. Her entire demeanor (the rather stilted "my love, my love", not to mention her expression when she gets to her feet - that's Amy Acker doing Illyria long before the blue makeup comes back again) screams "Illyria" to me. I don't deny that they were probably planning to bring Fred back in some way if the TV show had continued. That doesn't mean every single scene where Illyria is anything but "crush kill destroy" is Fred; the "lie to you" scene is the lynchpin of her entire post-"Shells" arc, and the logical step between her concern for Wesley (and partly Gunn) over the last couple of episodes and her painfully grief-stricken "I wish to do more violence!" later on, which isn't in the least bit Fred-ish.

Hands imagery has always been the sign of supreme truth in Jossverse.

Can't say that ever struck me - example?

Maybe it's because she cries, and tears are sacred in Jossverse

Exactly. Spike started his journey towards redemption in earnest when he wept over Buffy, Illyria starts hers when she weeps over Wesley. That doesn't mean they're William and Fred again.

I wonder if they're Gunn's allies, his "secret weapon".

Excellent point again - makes me think of this:

ANDREW: Check the view screen, Uhura. I got 12 Vampyre Slayers behind me, and not one of them has ever dated you. She's coming with us one way or another.

Angel has (or would have if he were a vampire) every reason to fear Slayers who don't know him. It will be interesting to see how they handle the Slayers - assuming this is the same canon as "season 8" and that they'll stick to the "no crossovers" rule, there's still a number of ways they could have ended up there. Did they just happen to be in LA, or were they sent there, and by whom?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Nice review!

Thanks!

I still feel there's more than the alloted amount of "damsel in distress" about that if it turns out that the whole comic will be about saving Fred.

Or Fred saving them. (I copy-paste from my reply to woman_of): given Lynch's love for twists, it may be quite the opposite. Fot example, Fred's scientific knowledge is crucial for getting things back to normal, so SP try to keep Wesley tied to W&H building because they don't want him to meet Fred.

That scene is a lot more powerful if it's a logical part of Illyria's arc over the last few episodes and right up until her final scene in NFA. Her entire demeanor (the rather stilted "my love, my love", not to mention her expression when she gets to her feet - that's Amy Acker doing Illyria long before the blue makeup comes back again) screams "Illyria" to me. I don't deny that they were probably planning to bring Fred back in some way if the TV show had continued. That doesn't mean every single scene where Illyria is anything but "crush kill destroy" is Fred; the "lie to you" scene is the lynchpin of her entire post-"Shells" arc, and the logical step between her concern for Wesley (and partly Gunn) over the last couple of episodes and her painfully grief-stricken "I wish to do more violence!" later on, which isn't in the least bit Fred-ish.

I was talking about that brief period of time that starts with Fred'd hand appearing in the frame and ends with Wesley's death. The creature who stands up and faces Vail is undoubtedly Illyria. But final moments of Wesley's life are the coda of Fred\Wesley ship.

(I again copy-paste from another reply): I have the impression that the scene had been conceived as romantic and cathartic. A ultimate tearjerker. The Romeo-and-Juliette mis-en-scene, the music - everything works as the coda of Fred\Wesley love story. You wrote in your LJ that the scene is meant to show that Wesley accepts a lie, but I can't agree that writers wanted to end his journey on such note. His story was heroic and romantic and the I think Joss wanted to give him (and Fred) a fitting ending.

Can't say that ever struck me - example?

Willow and Tara holding hands to make the spell work in Hush. Buffy and Spike's burning hands in Chosen. Our first glimpse at William starts with his hands writing awfully bad poetry.

Spike started his journey towards redemption in earnest when he wept over Buffy, Illyria starts hers when she weeps over Wesley. That doesn't mean they're William and Fred again.

You may be right. Still, I see two distictively different patterns of behavior: Fred's (tears) and Illyria's (desire to make violence).

It will be interesting to see how they handle the Slayers - assuming this is the same canon as "season 8" and that they'll stick to the "no crossovers" rule, there's still a number of ways they could have ended up there. Did they just happen to be in LA, or were they sent there, and by whom?

I'd make a guess that they are among those 1200 slayers who don't work with Buffy. Because otherwise it would be very difficult to stick to "no crossovers" rule. Then again, who knows...

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Fred's scientific knowledge is crucial for getting things back to normal

That's an interesting idea, but I'm skeptic; in the Buffyverse, science never trumps magic, and sendin all of LA to hell is definitely magic. Fred's scientific knowledge couldn't even get her back from Pylea.

But final moments of Wesley's life are the coda of Fred\Wesley ship.

Sure. With an ironic twist, as befits the Buffyverse (remember the codas to the Buffy/Angel ship? The one in "Chosen" and the one in "The Girl In Question"?)

I have the impression that the scene had been conceived as romantic and cathartic. A ultimate tearjerker.

Absolutely, and I'm not saying it isn't - I fog up every time I watch it. That doesn't mean it's played perfectly straight, or that that's ALL it is. Wesley's refusal to accept anything but the absolute truth always got him im trouble; he can't go to his grave with the knowledge that he'll spend eternity alone, and so he accepts the lie. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after. It's a fiction. It works on Wesley because it works on us.

Willow and Tara holding hands to make the spell work in Hush. Buffy and Spike's burning hands in Chosen.

OK, good point. But that doesn't mean every single scene involving a hand is necessarily the undisputed truth (cue the old discussion of whether Buffy and/or Spike are completely honest in that last scene). Also... remember Connor's bloody hands on Cordelia's belly giving birth to Jasmine, the ultimate lie?

Still, I see two distictively different patterns of behavior: Fred's (tears) and Illyria's (desire to make violence).

You're saying Illyria isn't close to tears in the alley? And why would she be so torn up if it's Fred who's grieving in the scene with Wesley? I see two different behaviours in Willow weeping over Tara's body and Willow torturing Warren to death too, that doesn't mean DarkWillow is a different character. ;-)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

With an ironic twist, as befits the Buffyverse (remember the codas to the Buffy/Angel ship? The one in "Chosen" and the one in "The Girl In Question"?)

I've got the impression that the really epic coda to BA was in Becoming 2. That was a scene of Shakespearian proportions. BA scene Chosen was a necessary closure-cum-deus-ex-machina plot twist. TGIQ was pure parody on both BA and Spuffy.

Wesley's refusal to accept anything but the absolute truth always got him in trouble; he can't go to his grave with the knowledge that he'll spend eternity alone, and so he accepts the lie. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after. It's a fiction. It works on Wesley because it works on us.

You may be right. I find it hard to argue - I just have this visceral impression that it really was Fred. I had it when I watched the episode for the first time. I have it now as I rewatch it for the n-th time.

What makes the scene particularly poignant to me is this double irony. Wesley is ready to accept the lie. But he's unaware that this is not a lie. It's a moment of truth. The first glimpse of his love reborn.

Of course, Fred's first reaction in issue 6 "is it over?" suggests that the last thing she remembers in her own death, not Wesley's death. But still... another moot point of ILY-NYDBTFSI proportions. :)

I wonder if the issue of truth and lies will be crucial in Wesley's journey in this season. Interestingly, he wanted Illyria to lie to him, as soon as her lie got developed by W&H into his private heaven, he immediately rejected it. I think he will be very suspicious of the new!Fred and it will be some extreme situation that will make him believe that it's really her.

remember Connor's bloody hands on Cordelia's belly giving birth to Jasmine, the ultimate lie?

I saw it just like a part of the ritual. You need to shed the blood of an innocent to create a monster.

You're saying Illyria isn't close to tears in the alley? And why would she be so torn up if it's Fred who's grieving in the scene with Wesley?

Illyria is also grieving. They both are attached to Wesley.

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

But he's unaware that this is not a lie.

Of course, if it were Fred it would still be a lie, since she's telling him they'll be together - except if Fred is coming back to life, that's not going to help Wesley as he's about to die. ;-)

Of course, Fred's first reaction in issue 6 "is it over?" suggests that the last thing she remembers in her own death, not Wesley's death.

Or she (deliberately not using a name there, as I'm still not sure who that is) is asking if the battle is over.

I saw it just like a part of the ritual. You need to shed the blood of an innocent to create a monster.

Probably true. But why are hands a sign of "supreme truth" in one case and "just part of the ritual" in another? I'm not saying it can't be a powerful symbol, but if it's not always symbolic, then Fred's hands don't actually prove anything.

Illyria is also grieving. They both are attached to Wesley.

And we know the depth of Illyria's grief because we've just seen her grant Wesley's dying wish and crying over his corpse. :-) Without that scene, her grief in the final scene comes out of nowhere - not to mention that it would set up an entire new arc (Fred's) in the very last episode of the show, which wouldn't make much sense.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Of course, if it were Fred it would still be a lie, since she's telling him they'll be together - except if Fred is coming back to life, that's not going to help Wesley as he's about to die. ;-)

Or maybe she considers herself dead. I'm very curious about new!Fred's behavior and set of memories. When Spike found her, she didn't remember anything. But that could be a trick to heighten the drama, like Angel not remembering anything when Willow restored his soul in Becoming 2. Maybe in the next issue she'll remember everything, we'll see.

Or she (deliberately not using a name there, as I'm still not sure who that is) is asking if the battle is over.

Agree.

I'm not saying it can't be a powerful symbol, but if it's not always symbolic, then Fred's hands don't actually prove anything.

Of course, hands can't be symbolic in *every* shot. I don't insist that Fred'd hand we see proves that it's real Fred. It's just a detail of my highly subjective vision of the scene.

And we know the depth of Illyria's grief because we've just seen her grant Wesley's dying wish and crying over his corpse. :-) Without that scene, her grief in the final scene comes out of nowhere

... in case she "switches off" when Fred awakens. But if she's conscious, witnessing the Wesley's death, then her grief may be similar to the audience' grieving.

not to mention that it would set up an entire new arc (Fred's) in the very last episode of the show, which wouldn't make much sense.

Or granting the audience a Big Unresolved Love Triangle (Fred\Wesley\Illyria). I definitely see a pattern here. :)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

Or granting the audience a Big Unresolved Love Triangle

I don't know about that. Wesley's death seems pretty resolve-y. ;-)

I guess my major problem with the idea of it being Fred (apart from it cheapening Illyria's storyline) is that it comes out of nowhere. And while death wasn't always permanent in the TV!Buffyverse, bringing a character back from Absolutely Stone Dead to walking-in-sunshine alive never happened easily; there was always tons of fallout that took ages to clear up. Bringing Buffy back cost both Buffy and Willow so much that it almost killed them and took an entire season to deal with; bringing Darla back actually did kill her and nearly cost Angel everything; when Angel became human the price would have been so high that he said "thanks, but no thanks"; etc. If there had been a season 6 in the works I could see them start hinting that it's Fred in NFA, but after "Underneath" they knew there wouldn't be a season 6. So why would they suddenly bring in Fred out of nowhere, and then get rid of her again with no follow-up - especially after they've shown that Illyria can act like Fred, and after they've had her ask Wesley earlier in the episode if he wants her to impersonate Fred?

But hey, it's quite possible that the comics will side with you. :-) We'll see.

(And I really need an Illyria icon.)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Interesting arguments. I thought about them all day before posting a reply

cheapening Illyria's storyline

Yes, it's a very valid argument. All I can say that every resurrection (Buffy's, Angel's, Spike's) cheapens the character's storyline. One of the evils of serialized entertainment.

it comes out of nowhere.

Let me quote Joss explaining how he planned to bring Tara back:

http://movies.ign.com/articles/425/425492p9.html

I used to tell people, "Here's what we're going to do. We're going to have her in a couple of flashbacks, keep her alive, and then at the end ..." I had a whole show figured out that ended with the return of Tara.

I see a relatively similar pattern here: "Why can't I stay" in AHITW and Illyria impersonating Fred in TGIQ. I think that writers were conditioned by Joss to keep alive the idea of Fred's return.

bringing a character back from Absolutely Stone Dead to walking-in-sunshine alive never happened easily; there was always tons of fallout that took ages to clear up.

My guess is that Fred will be back soulless, but - we'll see.

And, finally...

So why would they suddenly bring in Fred out of nowhere, and then get rid of her again with no follow-up - especially after they've shown that Illyria can act like Fred, and after they've had her ask Wesley earlier in the episode if he wants her to impersonate Fred?

I have the impression that one of the most fascinating themes on AtS is the possibility of a miracle. Pure and simple miracle. Angel entering Kate's flat without an invitation at the crucial moment. The birth of Connor. I think that it would be very apt to give us another miracle in the last episode of the show.

And here I must stop. My fanwank level grows dangerously high... :)

(And I really need an Illyria icon.)

What about?..
(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Avatars2/?action=view&current=illyria_sword.gif)

[beer-good-foamy.livejournal.com]

And here I must stop.

Fine by me... oh wait, I just have to argue a tiiiiiiiny bit more. :-) Sorry. Feel free to ignore.

All I can say that every resurrection (Buffy's, Angel's, Spike's) cheapens the character's storyline. One of the evils of serialized entertainment.

True, but it's not quite the same situation IMO. All of those are about telling a story to the end and then going back on it; if you're right, then Illyria is still in the middle of her story when it's interrupted to bring in Fred.

I think that writers were conditioned by Joss to keep alive the idea of Fred's return.

Maybe, but again - AHITW was written before they knew they were getting cancelled, and so it made sense to set up future arcs then. But doing it with less than 10 minutes to go of the entire franchise...?

The birth of Connor.

Was set up in 2.09, "The Trial," and then helped along by all the Darla-related plot lines in s2 and s3. Angel and Darla worked hard for that miracle, it didn't come out of nowhere.

What about?..

Sweet! Thanks a lot! Snagging it like it ain't no thang. :-)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I just have to argue a tiiiiiiiny bit more. :-) Sorry.
Feel free to ignore.

No way! :-)
There is lot of interesting ideas to ponder upon and keep me speculating until the next issue arrives. Rationally I agree with practically everything you say (although I can't not counter that Wesley and Fred also worked hard for a miracle).

Maybe I see Fred because I want to see her (although I can't say that I'm a diehard Wesley\Fred shipper). Maybe I just regard AtS from BtVS positions. On BtVS it's All.About.Love. On AtS - not particularly.

So, yes, maybe by NFA Wesley\Fred story was in the past and the scene was about Illyria's enlightening.

And - I'm glad you liked Illyria avi! :)

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

My assumption regarding the Slayers was that they're either prisoners or unwitting dupes: Gunn sends his vampire minions to face them, and the ones who manage to escape without getting dusted are worthy of joining his gang.

As for Fred: my no.1 supposition is that Illyria is turning to Fred's memories more and more for guidance in how to behave in this new world... so her behaviour is becoming more Fred-like. How that ties in with the ATF 6.05 revelation I'm not sure.

My favourite theory, though, is that Fred's soul was being consumed, as an ongoing process, in the fires of resurrection until Willow travelled through the astral plane (as noted in 'Shells') and rescued her. But since her body had been taken over by an elder god who wasn't about to vacate it any time soon, Fred was faced with two choices. Let her soul pass on to its reward... or be put back into her body to share it with Illyria, much in the way Angel's soul shares his body with Angelus. She naturally volunteered for the second, hoping to 'tame' Illyria and turn her onto the path of being a Champion. Her plan worked.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

My assumption regarding the Slayers was that they're either prisoners or unwitting dupes: Gunn sends his vampire minions to face them, and the ones who manage to escape without getting dusted are worthy of joining his gang.

It's not vampires they're fighting. The slayer in the foreground fights a demon with red eyes. The other two fight glowing skeletons. Of course, it could be just an attempt to diversify the visuals. (I still find it hard to adapt to comics conventions).

My favourite theory, though, is that Fred's soul was being consumed, as an ongoing process, in the fires of resurrection until Willow travelled through the astral plane (as noted in 'Shells') and rescued her. But since her body had been taken over by an elder god who wasn't about to vacate it any time soon, Fred was faced with two choices. Let her soul pass on to its reward... or be put back into her body to share it with Illyria, much in the way Angel's soul shares his body with Angelus. She naturally volunteered for the second, hoping to 'tame' Illyria and turn her onto the path of being a Champion. Her plan worked.

I love your theory! :) May I contribute a bit? Willow relocated Fred's soul into the body of a giant snake (for some reason it was the only option at that moment) and later had a passionate affair with her...

But, seriously, I believe that the destruction of the soul doesn't mean the destruction of Fred's personality.

My theory is that Joss initially planned season 6 as Amy's showcase, as a reward to her for playing goodie-two-shoes for 3 seasons. Hence, Illyria. And, later, soulless Fred. Besides, is season 6 would have been continued on TV, Wesley would have been kept alive - and what else could Joss invent to make him epically unhappy?

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

I assume that the 'glowing skeletons' are vampires who've just been staked, and the artist has captured them in the precise moment before they crumble completely to dust. If you look closely at the one on the left, you can actually see a stake sticking into its chest. As for the red-eyed monster, I'm pretty sure that's the same vampire that George is talking to in the previous panel: same bald head, same crooked scar over one eye, and eyes glowing red in both panels.

Comics vampires seem to have red eyes as often as they have yellow ones...

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Yes, it's pretty possible. Like I already said, I'm often confused by comics art. I realise that it's practically impossible to draw a vampire in the moment of his dusting so maybe the skeletons are an attempt to adjust the dusting process to new medium... :)))

[menomegirl.livejournal.com]

Very interesting review! Lots to think on.

I agree with beer_good_foamy about Illyria re:NFA and I agree with what elisi said above:Seriously though, I don't *want* it to be Fred in that scene. It would make no sense, and cheapen the moment. The fact that this Hellgod, who sees humankind as nothing more than vermin, cares to such an extent that she will fulfill a dying man's dream... that is far more impressive than love..

(Not that I've ever felt Wesley's death very keenly:the scene before that always upsets me too much.)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Very interesting review! Lots to think on.

Thanks!

I agree with beer_good_foamy about Illyria re:NFA and I agree with what elisi said above: Seriously though, I don't *want* it to be Fred in that scene. It would make no sense, and cheapen the moment. The fact that this Hellgod, who sees humankind as nothing more than vermin, cares to such an extent that she will fulfill a dying man's dream... that is far more impressive than love.

The arguments are very valid and rationally I agree. I noticed that practically nobody sees the scene the way I see it, but it's still Fred to me.

(Not that I've ever felt Wesley's death very keenly:the scene before that always upsets me too much.)

Yes, I have similar problem with NFA: there are too many shocking developments cramped into a 40-min episode. I remember practically gasping when Lorne shot Lindsey. I was stunned, I was sure that Lindsey is part of the team now. I still am terribly uneasy when I watch the scene.

But, obviously, Joss wanted to shock us as much as possible... :(