Fanfiction, criticism, kerkuffles

[moscow_watcher]

Recent kerkuffle made me think. About fanfiction. About fandom. About myself.



The more I read the arguments and counter-arguments of the last 10 days the more depressing the whole thing sounds. I abstained from comments in other people's LJs, and I'm glad I did. Instead I'm trying to put my thoughts in order. I'm not as eloquent and erudite as other fans, but I'm afraid I can't keep my mouth shut.

I think the essence of the kerkuffle boils down to 2 debatable questions.

1. Should fanfics follow in official art's footsteps re: characterization or they may argue, develop or just plain ignore it?
2. Should fans critisize other fans or just ignore the stuff they don't like?

I'd love to read people's opinions. Here are mine.

1. I don't have a definitive answer if ficwriters should follow in official art's footsteps or ignore it. I have a friend who is a big Harry Potter fan. And she had never read a single HP book and had never seen a single HP film. She reads fanfics. Her OTP is Harry\Draco, she has enough fics to satisfy her kink and she's blissfully unaware of other stories (including canonical ones) where Harry and Draco are written "in character". Is she right? Is she wrong? I don't know.

Professional writers often write about things they don't care about - they get the assignment, find the information, write a good story and get money for their work.

Should fandom activity be fun or an effort? Or both? I think the rules of the game in fanfiction are a bit different than in professional entertainment. Professional art has certain requirements and to meet them writer has to make a lot of efforts. Fanfiction is about feeding one's own kinks. Sometimes ficwriters find other people who share their tastes, and they become friends. Sometimes it doesn't happen. Should ficwriter try to write differently to please other fans? I don't think so.

Ficwriting isn't work. It's a hobby. Ficwriters produce great stuff only when they write what they're passionate about. (To be fair, they also produce a lot of crap). But usually people who write fanfiction are somewhat unhappy with the canon and want to change it. You have to hanker for happy reunion, or a character escaping the clutches of death or proving himself worthy - you have to yearn for it really hard to start writing your own version of events.

Or your version of a character.

Each fan has his\her own perception of a character. For the majority of TWoPers "the Scoobie in character" is a heroic, selfless, person who never does anything wrong and "the Spike in character" is evil Spike. In Spuffy camp it's pretty much the opposite. Force Spuffy ficwriter compose a fic about happy Buffy\Angel reunion - the result will be either parody or honest failure. Force canon-respecting ficwriter create an AU story with Fairy!Spike, Witch!Buffy and Cinderella!Angel - the result will be the same.

Now, I don't like AUs. I don't read stories where Angel is a famous basketball player, Spike is a rock-musician and Buffy is a budding movie star. They're just not my cup of tea. But I know a lot of people who enjoy these stories with "out-of-character" characters. God bless them. Fanfics are about changing canon. Is it OK to change characters and to adjust them to one's particular needs? If yes, how far you may go? Again, I don't know. It's up to writer's taste, I suppose.

2. The second question is even more delicate. Should fans critisize other fans or just ignore the stuff they don't like?

I read a lot of film reviews for my work - in Russian, in French, in English - and I know that the harshest filmcritics and reviewers are Americans. And, curiously, the best films are also made in America. Partly - because filmmakers know that nobody will cut them some slack. No matter how famous they are and what their previous achievements are, they're as good as their last film is. Cruel? Yes. But effective.

On the other hand, should amateur art stick to these rules? You don't pay to read fanfiction. It's a gift to you from another fan. When a person gives you a gift in real life - could you say to him that his gift is wrong?

I'm really, really torn about this. I usually leave positive feedback when I like the story, or no feedback when I dislike it. Am I afraid to critisize? In a way, I am. I don't want to discourage writers. Even if they write something I don't like. One person's disaster is another person's masterpiece.

Recently I read a story by a new author, loved it a lot, and recommended it on my home board. The author quickly started the next story and I recommended her as soon as I read the first chapter because the premise is great (although I know other stories with the same premise). But in the next chapters the development of the plot slowed down and they don't add anything to the stuff we learned in the first chapter. I still enjoy the story but I start to get impatient. Should I write about it in feedback? But maybe that's exactly the writer's intention - to make me impatient?

Another example. Recently I read a story by a very good writer who wrote Buffy\Angel dynamics as a clone of Buffy\Spike dynamics. Really. They fight, they snark and they are horny. If you change the name of the vamp, the fic makes more sense. I was tempted to point it out to her but decided against it. And I don't know if I was right.

The problem is that I don't know how this or that writer will react. I've never been critisized for my fanfiction, although I've often been mocked and attacked for my shipping preferences. I think I developed pretty thick skin during shipping wars, and after several accusations of being a "rapist lover" who "shouldn't be allowed to have children" I'd just snicker if somebody says my fics are crappy. I know they're not masterpieces. I know they're are fluffy and out-of-character. I tried to write serious stories but I quickly realised that I suck at being a serious writer. And I'm OK with it. But many people are sensitive to criticism.

Just a thought. Maybe people who don' mind criticism should create a community where they could cross-post their fics and discuss them without reservations?

Anyway, I'm open to any criticism. If you disagree, it's OK.

And I want people to read awesome post by shadowscast 5 Reasons Why Writing Fanfic Is Good For Me. She rocks. She's my hero.

Comments

[deborahw37.livejournal.com]

That's a great post!

I only leave constructive criticism if an author requests it. I leave praise if a story interests and entertains me and I stop reading and don't comment if it doesn't

I sometimes write for publication and the editing and criticism process is way harsh but makes you a better writer ... it is however not always a lot of fun.

and fanfic should be fun


So whilst I welcome concrit on my own few forrays into fanfic I would never offer it unasked to another writer .

and if it is asked for I try to make it as gentle and positive as possible

sort of " this would be even better if...."

Which is a cop-out.

But better than risking putting someone off writing

Anyway

thanks for the post

It's real food for thought.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks for commenting! I'm glad that I'm not alone in my reluctance to critisize.

fanfic should be fun

And also a therapy. Writing sublimates one's frustrations, gives a creative outlet. Rants definitely help to feel better (Internet is gradually turning into a shrink's couch). Also, I noticed that the best ideas visit me when I'm angry. Something just clicks in my head - and my Spike gets a punchline! :)

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

Well done post. That being said - thank goodness she flocked her lj. That way she won't get her fweelings hurt and I don't have a chance of accidentally seeing any of her manips. (My eyes, my eyes!)

Whoops - I didn't know I had that much snark in me. Maybe I just don't like the word "rape" bandied around.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I agree that we should be careful with certain words. But I try not to talk about the kerkuffle itself, because it's too depressing.

[empresspatti.livejournal.com]

I agree that we should be careful with certain words. But I try not to talk about the kerkuffle itself, because it's too depressing

Or - depending on point of view - kinda silly.

[makd.livejournal.com]

Interesting post; I think you've posited some reasonable responses and good insightsintot the situation.

I like this suggestion: "Maybe people who don' mind criticism should create a community where they could cross-post their fics and discuss them without reservations?" Except I think this was done last year? But, for those who are interested, it's still a good idea.....

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Except I think this was done last year?

Oh, really? Could you give me a link?

[rahirah]

concritique As someone pointed out, it's kind of dead, and I think they put a finger on why. Most writers who want crit build up a relationship with betas whose opinions they trust, so the people who post to such comms regularly tend to be newbies who haven't found a beta yet, or people whose betas have unexpectedly taken the weekend off. That's not enough to sustain a community over the long run. Not to say it can't be done, but no one's managed it yet.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks! I broused the con_critique pages and discovered a lot of interesting stuff. But, as you have already said, it was mainly a beta search community.

[novichok74.livejournal.com]

Отличный пост!
О том, что допустимо или нет в фанфикрайтерстве, по мне так допустимо все, что хорошо написано. Если автор правдоподобно, талантливо и интересно объяснит то или иное развитие характера, отношений или сюжета, то ради Бога, я только "За"! Главное, чтобы это не было написано с подразумевающейся отговоркой "Ну представьте, что так оно случилось/ таким она/она был/была и т.п.". После главы другой мне становится просто неинтересно читать об этих придуманных плоских товарищах. Потому что в них все схематично и шаблонно, либо наивно до отвращения.
К твоим фикам это не относится ни в коей мере))) Я обожаю то, как ты видишь героев, как ты их пишешь, мне нравится твой полет фантазии и невероятно добрый и заразительный юмор!!! Мне нравится то, что твои фики по-настоящему живые и в них веришь - веришь, что такое вполне могло приключиться и в каноне.
Насчет критики... Я тоже стараюсь помалкивать, если история мне совсем не нравится. Но а как быть, если в целом фик нравится, но в некоторых моментах тебя что-то не утраивает или вызывает вопросы? Думаю, здесь не обойтись без конструктивного разговора по душам. Главное, чтобы за этим стояло не желание обидеть автора, а помочь ему.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

В нынешней драчке ситуация - настоящий Гордиев узел. Некая авторша написала фик, в котором Ангелус насилует Уиллоу куском мыла (сама я не читала, знаю из пересказов). У авторши много благодарных читателей, которые восхищаются ее шедеврами. Некая группа фикрайтеров начала катить на эту авторшу бочки. Та обиделась, слово за слово - и теперь в спангельском стане раздор, люди чистят списки друзей и припоминают друг другу былые обиды. Стоило ли заводиться? Не знаю. Я прекрасно знаю это состояние, когда руки так и чешутся написать какую-нибудь колкость. Но с другой стороны, похоже, овчинка выделки не стоит.

[novichok74.livejournal.com]

Куском мыла?! Мдя, ну что ж каждый страдает своиим собственными извращенными фантазиями *ну, почему страдает - получает удовольствие))))*
Знаешь, трудно судить по отдельному эпизоду, может в контексте фика, эта сцена имела право быть. Помнишь фик Крис "Двое"? Как он жутео начинался, но как это все было опрадвно дальнейшим развитием истории. Но в любом случае поднимать сыр-бор из-за этого глупо. Хотя да, трудно удержаться и не вставить свои пять копеек, а если уж спор зашел, то тут ужу трудно удержаться в рамках...

[mrs-underhill.livejournal.com]

Как один мой знакомый любил говорить: не любо - не слушай, а врать не мешай. И кактусами давиться никто не заставляет. Вот и я также к этому примерно отношусь. Фанфики - это хобби, игра, личное дело каждого. Если человек от этого получает удовольствие (а с ним и еще несколько - у этой авторши вроде и поклонницы были), то чего людям кайф ломать?
Другое дело, если фанфиковское AU пытаются навязывать, убеждать, что это лучше канона и пр. Или если товарищ пытается имя и авторитет на этом делать, ищет популярности в широких кругах. А если человек без претензий, то трогать и обижать его грех.
Как сказал клиент демонского борделя Груселагу: Do not judge me. :)

[red-sunflower.livejournal.com]

As always I miss all the fandom kerfuffles.

I love your post, really, I think that many of us who are just readers and who have no talent to try a fanfic always debate between leaving feedback and not doing it.

I have read stories I don't like and who are badly written, I don't leave feedback at all. Reasons? I know the writer will think I'm a troll because what is the point of leaving feedback for something you don't like and I think that most of the authors dislike being told that the story is bad written even if the storyline is great.

I leave feedback if the story is good but the style is not that good, I point what I like and I suggest to re-edit the typos or point at inconsistencies in a casual way. If the author is a friend of mine is my obligation to point those things and I'm direct but polite.

I do try to leave constructive feedback, is not always about suggesting a style but about planting seeds in the author mind to let her/him see that there are other possibilities than the ones they have in mind for their stories.

I have a strong feeling about authors being rudely criticized and who decide to friends-lock their stories. I think that is accepting that 1) they can't deal with negative criticism in any form 2) they will only let their "fans" read it and I'm sure that "great story" in all the reviews don't compensate the constructive feedback given by a neutral reader in the way that you learn more of objective criticism. Of course, that is me and if the author doesn't like to get her/his feelings hurt (which is only natural after being given trollic reviews), then is the thing to do.

Personally, I've read a couple of stories of the author in question and I can say that they're not my cup of tea so I don't have her in my fanfic radar.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Anita, great post.

The problem with constructive criticism is that еру overwhelming majority of people who are OK with it, don't actually need it. They write good stuff. They are sure of themselves, of their abilities. They don't lose sleep if somebody tells them their fics have flaws. OTOH, people who are unsure of themselves tend to be agressive and nervous. And it results in conflicts and de-friending. BtVS fandom was already fragmented. Now it's even more fragmented. I don't know if it was worth it.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Interesting thoughts!

1) Should fanfics follow in official art's footsteps?

Well, because this is a voluntary hobby, I don't think there's any 'should' or 'must' about it. We do this for fun... and usually too for the gratification of receiving recognition and feedback. But from my own perspective, the answer is clearly 'yes' - because that's what makes it fanfic instead of original fiction. If you're going to just use the characters' names, but make their situations and personalities completely different to what's shown in canon, why are you even bothering? Why not just write original fic?

Having said that, I've got no problem with stories that build on hints in canon (about relationships, plotlines, etc) and turn them into full-fledged storylines. Nor with AU stories which change one specific element, but keep the others the same, as a deliberate stylistic device. That's transformative art, which is what makes fanfiction artistically valuable in its own right: showing familiar things through a new lens.

2) Should fans criticise other fans or just ignore the stuff they don't like?

Unfortunately, I can only really answer for myself here, since I know my view on feedback will be different to many other peoples. And it's influenced by several factors:

Firstly, my job involves writing (brochures, press releases, etc) which are then reviewed, corrected and criticised by several other people, and I have to incorporate the revisions into the draft - or argue my case as to why my original wording is better than their suggested change.

Second, I come from a Usenet and web-forum background where challenging someone's posts and arguments is par for the course - if anything, it's a compliment; it shows that your essay/meta/review/etc was interesting enough to provoke a discussion.

And thirdly, I'm male, and thus socially and hormonally conditioned to be competitive and not back down from confrontation. ;)

All of which means that I've got no problems with receiving constructive criticism. I wouldn't say I would welcome negative feedback - nobody likes someone being harsh about their baby, and my first reaction would be to defend what I wrote rather than accept the other person's comments. But I hope I'd be able to get over that and listen to what they had to say... and deep down, I'd be glad they took the time to give that feedback. It would be far worse if nobody at all commented, after all. :) And it may be trite, but it's still true: if you're not pushed to get better, then you don't.

That said, there are of course ways to give negative feedback that are less painful to hear. :) The old "point out the good things first, before you raise the negatives" one. And phrasing the feedback as your own reactions and opinions, rather than an objective fact: "I didn't really understand what was happening in chapter 2" rather than "your plotting and dialogue in chapter 2 were awful". Be specific about things that didn't work, rather than making sweeping statements. And, obviously, avoid personal insults like calling someone a rapist lover...

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

First of all, thank you for a detailed, thoughtful feedback. I love reading people's thoughts.

If you're going to just use the characters' names, but make their situations and personalities completely different to what's shown in canon, why are you even bothering? Why not just write original fic?

I think writing is therapeutical and it helps people to overcome their frustrations. It's natural to write about the stuff you're frustrated with and to suggest your own spin on events. Sometimes the only thing that frustrates the author is the absence of a happy reunion or miraculous escape so s/he doesn't deviate from the canon much and makes only slight changes. Sometimes the author thinks that everything in canon is wrong. The only thing that matters is characters' pretty faces. Why not put them in totally different milieu?

At least, that's how I see the mechanism of fanfic creation. I may be wrong, though.

And it may be trite, but it's still true: if you're not pushed to get better, then you don't.

I read and I agree with every word, but can't keep from thinking that it's an opinion of a professional writer.

Let me try to explain. The first writers weren't professionals. Homer hadn't been paid for his stories; he was telling (singing) them to small groups of like-minded people who appreciated his efforts. (I wonder if he had been also critisized. :) Since his times art had made full circle and today ficwriters also tell their stories to small groups of like-minded people who (ideally) appreciate their efforts. No, I'm not comparing modern ficwriters to Homer talent-wise; I just want to say that we're witnessing a unique process in creative world: going back to the beginning. Fanfiction is a new phenomenon with very old roots.

It's natural that professional writers who who perceive fanfiction as art, judge it from professional standpoint. But many ficwriters aren't professional writers. They come here to play. To satisfy their kinks. To relax. To do what they want to do, not what other people tell them to do.

I only try to look at the situation through the eyes of both sides - because the other side doesn't take part in this discussion - which is a pity.

[stormwreath.livejournal.com]

Sometimes the author thinks that everything in canon is wrong. The only thing that matters is characters' pretty faces. Why not put them in totally different milieu?
How much can you change and still remain fanfic, though? You can write a story where Angel behaves as if he's had a character transplant from Spike, and it's still recognisable. You can put him in a relationship with (picks name at random) Lindsey, and it's still recognisable. You can make him a human opera singer from Milan, and it's still recognisable. But if you change all those things, how does anyone know you're even writing a Buffy fanfic, and not, say, a story about Harry Angel from Angel Heart?

If you're writing purely for your own satisfaction and enjoyment, as you suggest, then it's no problem. But if you want other people to read and enjoy your work, I think you do accept certain obligations towards them - if only because if you don't give them what they expect, they'll complain. (Or just not leave any feedback...)

Maybe you're right that I'm seeing this as a professional writer, at least in as much as I'm concerned with how the audience will react rather than my own experiences. Even so, I want to be proud of what I write, and if I think it's not up to the best standard i'm capable of, I'll feel disappointed.

Oh, and are you sure Homer wasn't a professional? Not in the sense of getting paid a salary, of course, but if he supported himself by reciting his poems and receiving food and money in return - or was maintained by a patron - then he was a professional poet. The only alternative would be that he was an independently wealthy landowner or similar who made up poetry as a hobby.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

How much can you change and still remain fanfic, though?

Another *very* debatable question. Fanfiction isn't just text. It has a visual baggage. You write "Buffy" and your reader will mentally see Sarah Michelle Gellar without further descriptions of her eyes, lips and hair. It's like you imagine Buffyverse actors playing together in some movie.

If the authors and their readers both agree that their AU stories are fanfiction and are happy with such definition, I think it's their own niche with their own rules. OTOH, the lines are very blurred here. I know that some canon-respecting ficriters later re-wrote their Buffyverse fics into original fiction.

Oh, and are you sure Homer wasn't a professional? Not in the sense of getting paid a salary, of course, but if he supported himself by reciting his poems and receiving food and money in return - or was maintained by a patron - then he was a professional poet. The only alternative would be that he was an independently wealthy landowner or similar who made up poetry as a hobby.

You've got a point. Homer isn't a good example. But I only wanted to say that writing became a profession only - when? - three? four centuries ago? Medieval monks who wrote their treatises, aristocrats who composed plays for their home theaters, knights who wrote poetry to impress their beloved - they did it for a very limited (often target) audience and they didn't get paid.

[angearia.livejournal.com]

Hi Lena! I've been reading through old entries here on your LJ and I can't resist posting something here. You might not even see this comment but ah well...

Emily Dickinson wrote her poetry for herself alone and often times burned her pieces so that no one else could read them. The poetry we do have of hers is considered to be some of the best American poetry in the nation's relatively short, literary history. Just a better example of how excellence isn't necessarily linked to obtaining feedback nor being a professional nor even interacting with others who read your works.

Btw, your LJ is a really fascinating read. I'm going through all your old fanfic recommendations. Thanks for being so thorough and thoroughly interesting!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hi, Emmie!

Yes, I've got the notification of this comment and I'm thrilled and flattered that you read my old entries.

Emily Dickinson wrote her poetry for herself alone and often times burned her pieces so that no one else could read them.

Excellent example about Emily Dickinson. Indeed, sometimes very talented people wrote just because they needed to channel their feelings. AFAIK, Hobbit had been written purely for fun; Tolkien didn't plan to publish the story, he only wanted his friends to read it.

I'm going through all your old fanfic recommendations. Thanks for being so thorough and thoroughly interesting!

If you're interested, I posted my recs of classic Spuffy fics here:

http://www.fuzzyshark.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=947&start=0

It's the cream of the crop, the best of the best (in my opinion, of course). :)

[underthis-shade.livejournal.com]

Should fanfics follow in official art's footsteps re: characterization or they may argue, develop or just plain ignore it?

God...fandom was so much easier back in the day, you know. Everybody in the fandom (which consisted of writers on ff.net) were really great fans of the show. Now, there's just no telling anymore.

But yeah, I definitely think characterization should be important, especially in a show like Buffy where characterization is as important as plot.

They're not really mutually exclusive to me, especially if you're writing canon. Sometimes, even if a fic is AU, I get pissed at the characterization if the writer seems to not know his/her subject (there are still things to consider when it comes to AU characters).

To put it more simply and in more applicable a situation: Anya's a difficult character to write, right? It's kind of admitted and not bothered with because it's agreed she's a difficult character to write. But don't you sometimes get annoyed anyway if she's not written well? If her humor is just a little bit different from the show's; you still get annoyed, right? I know I do.

To be fair, they also produce a lot of crap

Truer words have never been spoken.

Should fans critisize other fans?

Definitely, 100%. I mean, I understand how it's difficult--it is a community after all. We have to learn to co-exist with one another and no one really likes to make enemies. So a lot of people just don't leave criticisms, especially if they know the writer can't handle it. But, to me, if the writers claim their works as art...doesn't that mean that they're automatically open to criticism?

Should I write about it in feedback? But maybe that's exactly the writer's intention - to make me impatient?

But there's a lot of degrees to that. You have to feel it out--if it's really going anywhere and it's all part of plot or if the author has just boxed herself/himself in and has no idea where to go with the story.

If you change the name of the vamp, the fic makes more sense. I was tempted to point it out to her but decided against it. And I don't know if I was right.

Yeah, that's where it gets tricky. Because the writer could say that s/he wanted to make the characters snarky and horny. It doesn't matter who was like that on the show. I think you can solve that by asking yourself: Is it feasible and believable if x character does x action? That sorta thing.

Maybe people who don' mind criticism should create a community where they could cross-post their fics and discuss them without reservations?

There are actually already a couple of communities like that. Two things why I think it doesn't work: Firstly, because a lot of people don't want their fics criticized by people they don't know (Which is pretty valid because what do you really know about them? Are they experts or are they just busybody, know-it-alls?). Secondly, to a lot of people reviews and criticisms are still different things. A review is a praise while a criticism is a flame. So, no, I don't think a place like that would work because it would only be critics and the writers on there.

Okay, that got long. Thanks for reading. I really enjoyed your post. :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks for a detailed reply. The more I read the more interesting it sounds.

God...fandom was so much easier back in the day, you know. Everybody in the fandom (which consisted of writers on ff.net) were really great fans of the show. Now, there's just no telling anymore.

Interestingly, my impressions are quite the opposite. I started dabbling in online fandom in 2002, when the season 7 had started. I witnessed epic battles with mutual accusations, threats and insults. I was told that I was a pervert and a rapist lover.

Then I discovered fanfiction and was amazed by ficwriters' nice and relaxed attitude to the show, its creators and other fans. Instead of crying out loud that everything is wrong, these people did what they considered right and were absolutely happy with it.

I mean, I understand how it's difficult--it is a community after all. We have to learn to co-exist with one another and no one really likes to make enemies. So a lot of people just don't leave criticisms, especially if they know the writer can't handle it. But, to me, if the writers claim their works as art...doesn't that mean that they're automatically open to criticism?

Yes - but we may look at the situation from a different standpoint. When you're served a burned cake in a cafe you definitely make a scandal. But when you visit your friend or your mother and her cake gets burned, your reaction is certainly different.

Um... Not a good comparison, so I stop playing devil's advocate. :)

So, no, I don't think a place like that would work because it would only be critics and the writers on there.

What about a rule: before starting to critisize one has to post his own fic so that the others could dissect it?

[rahirah]

Force Spuffy ficwriter compose a fic about happy Buffy\Angel reunion - the result will be either parody or honest failure. Force canon-respecting ficwriter create an AU story with Fairy!Spike, Witch!Buffy and Cinderella!Angel - the result will be the same.

Although there are writers who happily write both human AU and canon-based fic, or who write multiple and often incompatible pairings, and are quite good at both. (Like entrenous88, for example.)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Although there are writers who happily write both human AU and canon-based fic, or who write multiple and often incompatible pairings, and are quite good at both. (Like entrenous88, for example.)

Thanks for pointing in this direction - I'll definitely check entrenous88' fics!

[jamalov29.livejournal.com]

I enjoyed reading your post. Yesterday I talked about similar questions in my own journal, but I was more focused on the response some A.U human!stories get in fandom.

This latest kerfuffle was depressing , true. It is never pleasant to see people angry and/or hurt.

Should fanfics follow in official art's footsteps re: characterization or they may argue, develop or just plain ignore it?
I think it's really up to the writer to decide how he wants to handle the source material he got from Joss. Characterization is mostly what matters to many of us , I guess. Good fictions will tend to portray Spike , Buffy , Angel and all the others as they've seen them on screen , as they perceived them .
That being said , our perception of the characters may be very , very different.

In the end ( it was the main goal of my post ) , I believe freedom must prevail. If an author wants to use characters and ignore canon characterization , who am I to judge ?

I'm the kind 'live and let live'. :)

Should fans critisize other fans or just ignore the stuff they don't like?
Definitely ignore . I mean , when I read a fiction I try to leave positive fb and if I don't like something at all, I will stop reading. I'm not in a position to give concrit.
Like you I tend to avoid saying things that a writer could take the wrong way. *sigh* It's not easy !
We should be able to point out things which bother us , but ..

If I see fic or art that make me go : Uhh? I step back and look for something else !

As to the question whether or not some people should take the right to decide what's good and bad in the fandom , and make public post about it, thus attacking or mocking an author , an artist? It' s a big no.

My two cents. :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks! It's not two cents, it's two dollars! :) I'm happy to discover that I'm not alone in my reluctance to critisize. Any text may have a lot of interpretations. I thought that William's poetry in FFL was awful - until I read a brilliant post by frenchani who found it dark and disturbing. And now, every time I hear them I think that Spike's penis grows straight from his heart... :)

[elisi]

Meant to reply to this post, but never got round to it... not that I have much to say, but I like your thoughts a lot.

Force Spuffy ficwriter compose a fic about happy Buffy\Angel reunion - the result will be either parody or honest failure. Force canon-respecting ficwriter create an AU story with Fairy!Spike, Witch!Buffy and Cinderella!Angel - the result will be the same.
I think rahirah and tkp might have proven this wrong! *g* (And I have myself - a fervent Spuffy - written B/A that satisfied Bangel shippers.) I think if a writer is good enough he or she can write pretty much anything - but then it'll probably no longer be a question of getting personal enjoyment out of the writing, more a sense of fulfilling a challenge. Or something? *thinks* Actually, I think I could write a lot of things that were outside my OTP, but there are some things I couldn't write - say S/X. It is a pairing that quite simply cannot work for me and that would never change. Hmmmm, lots of thoughts.

Oh - and the reason I stopped by, before I got distraced by your clever post - who made the icon you used here? If it's yours, can I snag it?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Oh - and the reason I stopped by, before I got distraced by your clever post - who made the icon you used here? If it's yours, can I snag it?

I did it and you may snag it, of course, and, if you want it customized, I can add any text or add a border or anything else you want. (any pretext for ogling pretty, pretty boys is good - hee!)

I think rahirah and tkp might have proven this wrong!

I think drabbles are a bit different. I meant an actual story with a premise, some plot and a resolution which aims to prove that the rival ship is ze bestest.

I read and usually enjoy BA stuff that happens in the pre-canonical Spuffy timeline (an evil!Spike snarking and mocking them is an icing on the cake). Actually, I'm trying to write a story that incorporates both BA and Spuffy ships.

I have myself - a fervent Spuffy - written B/A that satisfied Bangel shippers

You mean your "Cavemen"? Oh, I adore it! Or, if you mean some other, strictly BA story, could you give a link?

[elisi]

if you want it customized, I can add any text or add a border or anything else you want.
Oh... that's something I'll have to think about. But yes! Just give me time to work out what! ::smooch::

You mean your "Cavemen"? Oh, I adore it!
I remember! ;) And interestingly, writing that made me much more pro-B/A than I'd been before. I don't find the ship anywhere near as interesting as Spuffy, but I quite like it now. I'm looking forward to seeing what you'll do!

Or, if you mean some other, strictly BA story, could you give a link?
I actually meant It was... a Hello, which is a re-write of *that* scene - not because I dislike the original, but because I wanted to try to examine Buffy's mindset. I got a card-carrying B/A shipper to read it through for me (to make sure I wasn't favouring S/B) and she really liked it! *is very proud*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link - I loved the story very much!

And - looking forward for ogling boys customization ideas!

[elisi]

And - looking forward for ogling boys customization ideas!
Well... after some thought I have... not a lot of thoughts. But... I think I'd like one that just says 'Spangel' (maybe in a cursive font?) Or maybe one that says 'Spangel: subtext' (after all it *is* the only m/m kiss in the entire show! *g*).

Oh! *has brainwave* Although maybe it'd make the icon too big, I dunno. But it would be fun if you could incorporate Angelus' speech from 'Destiny':

"Don't mistake me. I do love the ladies. It's just lately I've been wondering what it'd be like to share the slaughter of innocents with another man. Don't... don't think that makes me some kind of a deviant, hmm? Do you?

Any of those good or workable?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

The "subtext" avi is definitely workable. I already have a couple of ideas - making a pulsing "sub" and constant "text"; making a red cross-out of "sub"...

The big text avi is more difficult, but I'll try to figure out something.

[elisi]

making a pulsing "sub" and constant "text"; making a red cross-out of "sub"...
Sounds great! *bounces*

The big text avi is more difficult, but I'll try to figure out something.
Actually that one might be better with a still image? If it's unworkable, don't bother - it's all for fun after all! :)

(Oh and isn't this icon just *gorgeous*?)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

If it's unworkable, don't bother - it's all for fun after all! :)

It's challenging. I have an idea how to make it under 40 KB and I'll try it this evening after I'll finish translating that pesky Cannes festival stuff for my boss.

(Oh and isn't this icon just *gorgeous*?)

*ogles, drools, melts* Yay eye candies!!!

[elisi]

It's challenging.
In which case - knock yourself out! *g*

*ogles, drools, melts* Yay eye candies!!!
Yup, that's pretty much my response too. Mmmmmmm, pretty boys...

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Hey there, sweet, this is not about the fandom war. It's more forum-y. I wanna ask you a favor. Since you're a mod at FuzzyShark, can you look for my password? I forgot it and I've asked for a new password to be sent to my e-mail about two or three times and nothing was sent. Would you check with the mods for me? Thank you. :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hey, I was wondering why you stopped posting at CDS!

AFAIK, I can't retrieve passwords. I only can edit or delete other people's posts if I find them rude and inappropriate (which, I hope, never happens). But I'm going to ask our admin, and I will inform you as soon as I get her answer. (It may take some time because we live in different time zones).

*hugs* Hope to see you posting at CDS soon!

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much, I'll be waiting for your answer :)

I wanted to post for a long time but that damn password!! *glares*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hey,

I've got the answer from CDS admin:

I can't see existing passwords. But I can still get access to her profile, so if she chooses a new password I should be able to type that in, then manually activate her account.

Ask her what she wants as her password and I'll give it a go. I'm pretty sure this has worked before.

So write me at eletelin@mtu-net.ru, choose some generic password and I'll give it do admin. Then, when she'll activates your new password, you may log in and change it for a non-generic password.

It's a bit complicated, but the only other option is to register again under a different name.

[lusciousxander.livejournal.com]

The password is sent to your e-mail, thanks :)

[liisann.livejournal.com]

Ооооо! как бурно и как интересно идёт обсуждение!!! Спасибо тебе за очень интересный пост и за очень важные поднятые в нём проблемы (Извини, что не пришла сюда раньше, но у меня на прошлой неделе началась сессия и приезжали Линтхорсты...
1. Мне нравятся каноничные фики (я тоже практически не читаю АУ-люди), в последнее время всё труднее и труднее найти что-то действительно стоящее: отличная завязка, хорошее развитие действия...а как дело доходит до кульминации и развязки - становится очень грустно и скучно... А ещё в последнее время всё больше и больше меня интересуют фики пост NFA - и тут вопрос - а каноничны ли они? (если они не связаны с комиксом, который бесспорно каноничен)Но если фик хорошо написан, я читаю с большим удовольствием, даже если местами достаточно "вне характера". Если герои в нём интересны, если я их "слышу" и узнаю, я считаю, что это очень хороший подарок автора мне, читателю...И очень благодарна ему:))))

2. Стоит ли критиковать...Где-то в году 2002, когда я ещё только-только начинала читать фики, я познакомилась с очень симпатичной авторшей-англичанкой, написала несколько отзывов на её фики, мы познакомились...Спустя пару месяцев я написала ей очень вежливый личный мейл, в котором в очень мягкой форме покритиковала композицию её нового фика - фик был очень хорошим, но в нём была неоправданно затянутая нц-шная сцена, которая явно его кособочила. На что она тут же ответила "не нравится - не читай! Прежде всего я пишу для своего собственного удовольствия и ни в коем случае никого не заставляю себя читать!" Вот с тех пор я или хвалю то, что мне нравится, или просто молчу...
Что касается драчек, которые я наблюдала в Сети (их было всего две, обе они связаны с близкими мне людьми), я считаю их неконструктивными и недостойными, потому что преследуют они далеко не самые благие цели. И в первую очередь эти драчки унижают достоинство именно тех, кто радостно и вдохновенно поливает грязью своих оппонентов...

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

в последнее время всё труднее и труднее найти что-то действительно стоящее: отличная завязка, хорошее развитие действия...а как дело доходит до кульминации и развязки - становится очень грустно и скучно...

Я много раз задумывалась над этим. Может быть, дело в "закрытом каноне"? Сколько раз можно написать счастливое воссоединение post-NFA? Anaross умудрилась придумать семь, кажется, вариантов. Плюс одно грустное воссоединение. Плюс у нее куча незаконченных вещей. Очевидно, не может придумать, как с ними быть. Но она, к счастью, никогда не "вымучивает" свои истории. Если не идет - она просто перестает писать.

А ещё в последнее время всё больше и больше меня интересуют фики пост NFA - и тут вопрос - а каноничны ли они? (если они не связаны с комиксом, который бесспорно каноничен)

Кстати, сам Джосс недавно признал, что комикс лишь условно-каноничен. Мол, если когда-нибудь будет фильм, и события комикса будут противоречить концепции фильма, он с легкостью перечеркнет 8 сезон.

Интересно, что 99% шипперских авторов просто закрыли глаза на комикс и для них он вообще не существует. Мне кажется, фикрайтеры привыкли ответвлять действие в свою сторону с любого удобного им момента, и поэтому им нетрудно блокировать ненужные куски сюжета.

[liisann.livejournal.com]

Что касается условоной каноничности комикса - это Джоссовы игрушки, он волен ими играть так, как его душе будет угодно:) Как Великий и Ужасный решит, так и будет...

Другое дело - фантазия фикрайтеров, здесь уж кто на что горазд!!! Но предположительные Баффи с Ксаном, видимо, мало кого вдохновляют. Фикрайтеры вообще перетягивают одеяло каждый на свой пейринг:))) Вот я этим и пользуюсь, продолжая читать спаффиков:))))

[dfasgiles.livejournal.com]

hi, there. you friended my journal, so I just thought I'd drop by to ask what caught your eye about me, since you haven't commented on any of my fics and we haven't had any other contact. thanks!

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Hi!

I read your fic Smash Me, Wreck Me, Make Me Yours... and drabble When Buffy found Spike.... on ats_btvs_fanfic community on IJ and loved them a lot. I friended you on IJ and on LJ, because today it's hard to figure out who's staying on LJ and who's moving to IJ. I meant to leave feedback to your fiction but I was distracted by a phone call.

Hope you don't mind me friending you. I just love reading good fanfiction and today, after these mass defections I'm a bit disoriented and I'm afraid to lose my usual sources.