Scott Allie Letter

[moscow_watcher]

Recent kerkuffle at SlayAlive forums regarding Spike crossing over to BtVS in season 8 prompted me to write to Scott Allie. He replied quickly with thoughtful letter and gave me the permission to post it.

Previously on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" SlayAlive forum:

June 8 Scott Allie posted at SlayAlive, replying to fans who accused him of disliking Spike and deliberately writing him out of comics back in 2001-2002. His post is here. In brief: he said that several technical problems kept DH from using Spike in later seasons and then wrote about "Spike having raped Buffy" - words, that, I have to admit, made me mad.

I posted a harsh reply: "Why can't you honestly admit you dislike the character, mr. Allie? Why do you hide behind Spike-hating letters in "Slay the critics" column?" I wasn't reading comics back in 2002 and my main concern was DH printing Spike-hating letters in season 8, like this one (I post it here only because it's relevant to our correspondence)



When I brought up this letter, the discussion on SlayAlive became heated. The next day Scott Allie posted another explanation - and I realised that my posts were harsh and uncalled for. So I wrote him

Dear Mr. Allie,

I am a member of SlayAlive forum, my fandom name is Moscow Watcher and I was one of the posters in the now-notorious discussion regarding your attitude to Spike.

I write to you personally because a) you declared that you won't return to SlayAlive and b) I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.

I want to apologize for being too harsh. When I posted that you hide behind hate letters it was a knee-jerk reaction of a fan who had been called a "rapist lover" many times in the past. And your words "Spike having raped Buffy" sounded to me like an official endorsement of another anti-Spike campaign.

Because you're not a fan and are able to evaluate characters objectively, I'm sure you agree with this: Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse.

But when you - one of the Powers That Be - single out Spike and start telling people off ("you wouldn't want that to happen to your sister?") to emphasise your point, it sounds like an official seal of your disapproval of the character.

I'm happy that you posted a disclaimer that you don't hate Spike, because Spike fans have been marginalized for a long time. But there are some details in your disclaimer that bother me.

You mention that you print almost every single letter you get. The problem is that I sent you a letter and many other Spike fans I know personally and online also sent letters and none of them were published. Could all of them be lost somewhere in cyberspace and only Spike-hating letters got through?

Anyway, I plan to send you a copy of this letter by snail-mail - hopefully it will end up in your hands.

Another statement that bothers me is that you "don't censor letters critical of the characters, because I don't need to protect the feelings of the characters."

But what about the feelings of your audience? By posting letters that attack fans' role models you hurt their feelings and challenge their beliefs.

I contribute to "Q&A" column of Russian movie magazine "Film" and rule #1 in our editorial office is to respect our readers and not to mock their role models no matter who they are. That's why I was so surprised at the selection of the letters you published, but maybe things are different in the world of comic books?

Anyway, I'm glad I was wrong about your motives.

I apologize again for being too harsh and I wish you all the best in your work.

Yours sincerely

And I've got his reply within hours:

Hi Lena,

I really never meant to single Spike out. That wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rather than me lashing out at Spike at random, I think everything I'd said was in response to specific points from readers, specific questions, and largely in reference to his relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's. You're right, none of the characters are innocent, especially Angel. He and Spike are both making amends for things they've done.

As for the letters I run—please note that we're still only on the letters responding to issue #6, I think. We're way behind, because we get so much mail every issue, and we do run almost all of it. The letters that don't get run are ones that I see as mean-spirited attacks on the creators—we get the occasional letter like that, and if I find it nasty, I don't use it. If it's just negative, without being nasty, I do use it. You know, it's possible that there were some letters responding to Shawler that attacked him. Maybe we didn't use those. I can see protecting the fans from each other in that way, but I don't remember. I could see us choosing not to use a letter that was nasty about Shawler, but I do think we ran letters arguing with him, in defense of Spike. I'm almost sure I have. In terms of negative mail, the most recent letter from Shawler himself was mostly about how bad the comic was, that #5 was the only one worth the money. I see one letter in my in box from you, about the Buffy tarot deck, from April. I don't see anything else from you. Your name's familiar enough that I feel like I HAVE run letters from you before, though.

"I don't censor letters critical of characters ..." You raise an interesting point, and the policy at Film makes a certain kind of sense—but if I censor readers' thoughts about the characters in the stories, what is there left to talk about? You can use the lettercol to debate those points. Otherwise, we'll be left with, "I love Joss, Jo's so great" ... I think your opinions about Joss's characters are exactly what the lettercol is for, and if that includes rants against characters, I think it's okay. If one of you attacks Spike, another can defend him—and again, I think that's happened. If one of you attacks Joss, or Georges, in a way I find harsh, none of us can respond in kind. Accusations about me hiding behind other people's letters, the weird maneuvering I was being accused of—I think someone said they hated the idea of me hanging out with Joss—what is that? All I can do is try to tell my side of it, but I can't engage in the same sort of personal criticisms, whether it's on the board or in the letter col. I guess if someone calls Shawler an idiot, he's free to reply that that person's an idiot, but that doesn't seem like a good use of the lettercol either.

I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?

Thanks for the letter. While I appreciate that one thread, I don't want to fuel the whole "I Support Scott Allie" thing anymore than you do—as though there was someone to support me against. I don't want that with Buffy fans, even if they've sworn off the book. The one thing we have in common is our love of these characters, so an online flame war is of no interest to me.

Scott

I asked Mr. Allie for a permission to post his letter and he gave it to me. So, here it is. I really, really hope that Spike won't be short-changed if PTB decide to make a crossover. I realise that my expectations may be too high because I'm spoiled by wonderful fanfiction I read all these years. There are days when I don't want to see Spike on BtVS because his reappearance will result in another wave of hate-mail similar to Shawler's rant.

Still, like kathyh said yesterday, watching a show without a favorite ship can be like watching a football tournament when your team has failed to qualify, you can appreciate and enjoy it but the passion isn't always there.

I'm going to send the link to this thread to Mr.Allie. Keep that in mind if\when you post comments and try to avoid harsh words.

Comments

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Scott Allie Commemorative Spuffy Ficathon

Great idea! We'll institute prizes in multiples categories, invite Scott Allie to be a honorary judge and make him read all the entries (or, at least, NC-17 ones) :)))))))))))))))))))

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

*hugs* Sometimes I just can't keep my big mouth shut... :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Sometimes I wonder if people at Dark Horse realise how volatile this fandom is. But they publish Star Wars comics for a long time, and SW fandom is also very passionate and opinionated.

I hope Scott Allie understands now why Spike fans often sound so defensive and he doesn't judge us harshly. *sigh*

[makd.livejournal.com]

shapinglight said it for me, as well. ITA.

As youall know, I love the characters of Spike AND Angel, and find it deplorable that Xander's and Willow's crimes (attempted rape, abetting and killing and eating the principal - cannibalism -, killing and flaying, trying to destroy the planet) were ignored/rewarded with a trip to England.

I haven't purchased the Buffy comics, though I've seen friends' copies, because I don't want to savor them/keep them. The storyline appears completely un-
credible to me.

And Xander? as hero? :-)

Enuff said.

[gillo]

Good letter. I haven't been paying all that much attention to the comics, mainly because I find the medium way too slow for the characters I know and love in live-action mode, but also because they don't seem to be developing from S7 in ways I find interesting - not even a nod to the losses in Chosen, for instance. However, I've seen enough to feel shipper wars are being encouraged, tacitly or not, possibly for sales purposes. It doesn't do a lot to sustain trust, and his reply, while it might be a very good fan-to-fan defence, doesn't read as professionally as one might have wanted. Isn't it just a little ingenuous to suggest all this is astonishing?

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I feel a sudden urge to lock my Allie-related thread after this, since it's obvious he's checking it, but I'll resist. :P

Actually, it's one of the complex issues I'm torturing myself about. Does the possibility of being read by PTB impose self-censorship on fans? And where is the line between regular politeness and self-censorship?

I definitely censored myself when I wrote my letter (as well as Scott Allie did when he wrote his reply). And that's OK.

But then I asked people to avoid rude words because there is a possibility that Allie will read them. OTOH, he admits that he gets rude letters attacking Joss, George and other creators. And he may think that Spike fans aren't *that* frustrated - while in reality they are. A lot.

I'm afraid it's a no-win situation.

The letter does improve things a bit, but I'm still seeing the double standards. "Angel and Spike are both making amends for things they've done", but Allie's comments on the attempted rape were "largely in reference to Spike's relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's"? So, what, is Angel/Buffy superior to Spike/Buffy because he just tried to kill her instead of trying to rape her? Political correctness FTW.

I've got the impression that he doesn't use the *r* word and comparisons benween BA and Spuffy intentionally to avoid more controversy. Hopefully.

Angel/Cordelia is one of my least favourite 'ships, but even so, I don't think it's unpopular "with most fans" -- I think that was just an assumption Joss made based on his creative's team's negativity towards it. So yeah, I did worry that he was going to make a similar assumption about Spike/Buffy based on constant exposure to Allie and Jeanty.

I have a friend who watched AtS before BtVS. She thinks that Angel\Cordelia is the best ship in the whole verse. :)

As to Joss, I can only hope that fans' huge cheers of Buffy-Spike kiss in OMWF at the Paley screening make up for online negativity. Joss was there and saw the reaction of the mainsteam audience.

But instead of jumping 'ship, I pretty much jumped fandom a few days ago -- at least temporarily

How? What? How? < /Xander's voice >

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Yes he might not know how heated these debates could get (must avoid his one message board at Dark Horse then),

I don't know if he visits Dark Horse Forums, but he never posted there (although Blian Lynch did). I've got the impression that mods on SlayAlive forums invited him by e-mail and he made several posts. Until he realised that he had put his head into a lion's mouth.

but it all could so easily be avoided in the first place.

*Sigh*. God, yes.

You have a lovely name!

*blushes*

[enisy.livejournal.com]

Veronica Mars, LoVe. I'm still around, though, don't worry. :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

The storyline appears completely un-credible to me.

You know, Joss promised a crucial revelation in the middle of the season. Maybe we'll find out that season 8 is Buffy's nightmare? And in reality she has a happy, peaceful life. :)))))))

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Oh, I loved them a lot when VM aired. Have you read Spuffy\LoVe crossover, Closing Time by Anaross?

http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=anaross&keyword=Closing+Time&filter=all

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I really think the Spuffy vs Bangel thing is too emotional an issue for most fans for there to ever be a rational discussion about it. If one loves the characters, one is passionate about one pairing or the other and that makes it difficult to be objective about other points of view. Which is why I tend avoid threads and forums that discuss it

I wish I had your willpower. I usually run away from Buffy-bashing, Angel-bashing, Xander-bashing talks. But when I see Spike-bashing I can't shut up. Stupid, I know. It's like picking a scab.

The only thing that makes me glad is that the new generation of fans, unaware of shipper wars, is much more tolerant. Right now Russian TV airs BtVS again, after 7-year hiatus. New fans come to Russian BtVS communities and declare proudly, "My favorite ships are Spuffy and Bangel!" It's so touching... :)

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

Xander didn't actually eat the principal. He almost gets it as bad as Spike--worse in some ways. However, he was responsible for Sweet coming to town, and not opening his mouth when people started burning themselves to death. The entire Scooby gang, minus Spike, would have been responsible for Buffy's third death by burning to death, and Spike was the only one to attempt to stop her. Willow however, did kill people, and tried to destroy the world. She got off pretty easy. And let's face it, her witchy powers make her more than human.

I agree about the comics though--and yet, I still buy them. It's a vicious cycle. They are crack magic in paper form.

[enisy.livejournal.com]

Not yet. I'm not done watching the series; just finished Plan B in Season 2. (Which, by the way, features the first dance in the history of television and cinema that I actually found romantic.)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

The thing is, the attempted rape gets used as an excuse for disliking Spike, when really they just... dislike Spike.

You're soooo right.

Liking\disliking is always instinctive, visceral. People use brain and logic to prove their point of view, but their arguments rarely reflect real reasons of like\dislike.

And while I don't really get why someone would dislike Spike at all, I'd still be much happier if they'd defend their opinion that Spike sucks, rather than claiming to be morally superior because I'm supporting a rapist.

Yes, the attitude of moral superiority is especially frustrating. *sigh*

I don't think Scott Allie really understands just how loaded his comment was.

Hopefully he understands now. He sounds sincerely concerned about the kerkuffle on SlayAlive forums. I'm glad I wrote that letter.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

*You make me all nostalgic. I should rewatch VM this summer! :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I read your entry - lovely! - but hadn't time to reply yet. I'll do it as soon as I finish replying the comments here.

[ms-scarletibis.livejournal.com]

I hope that Scott is reading this, sense he's abandoned those forums--not that I blame him in the least.

I just wanted to throw in my two cents--Spike shouldn't be in the comics, nor should Angel. The only way that Spuffy works is in fan fiction (and even there it can sometimes miss the the mark). The only time that Bangel works is never. Why? Because Buffy could never fully appreciate or fully love Spike, and Angel could never see Buffy for all that she truly was, and vice versa on that same token. Buffy is yet to be a baked cookie, and I personally don't care when that happens. She's still "experimenting" or whatever, and taking care of her own selfish needs, not caring if it hurts a person who loves her. This is a big friggin' repeat, and she clearly has not learned any kind of lesson.

So yes, please don't have Spike or Angel cross over--neither is Buffy's true love. And call be crazy, but if we're talking purely canon here, the best pairing in this crazy triangle is Spike and Angel or Spangel. They had the best chemistry and, believe it or not, the *healthiest* relationship between the three pairings. Or Cordelia and Angel, but of course, that was all shot to shit in s4, and unnecessarily so.

The only person, well, the first person to make Angel really smile, come out of his shell, and stop being so uptight was Cordelia. They brought out the best in each other, and it was sad to see her character massacred beyond recognition, and the audience being cheated out of their potential relationship. It could've ended sadly, but we didn't even really get an official start.

So yeah, let the boys stay with IDW. It's safer and saner that way, IMHO.

[sp23.livejournal.com]

If he had just not said "Spike raped Buffy". If only that. *sigh*

However, whatever his true feelings for Spike - whether or not he considers Spike a neat character, a monster, or just a cash cow, I hope beyond hope that both boys stay far away from Buffy S8 or S9 or Season Infinity. For me, Joss has well and truly ruined Buffy. She's no longer the girl I loved and admired, and she's not worthy of either vampire.

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

My own feeling is that if there is a strong purposeful story arc for Spike in season 8, then he should be there. If there isn't, then he shouldn't. I don't want him to appear just for a namecheck. I'm a Spuffy believer- always will be - but if they genuinely feel that relationship has no where to go, then I don't want mere half-hearted lipservice given to it.

I absolutely agree. But I doubt that Joss has a strong arc for Spike in season 8. Chosen was the pinnacle of Spike's journey.

I may be in the minority among Spuffy fans but I think that from artistical standpoint Spike's story would have been better if he hasn't been resurrected on AtS. But, of course, Fox and ME couldn't let him rest in peace as long as they could exploit him commercially. *shrugs* Serialized entertainment is evil. :)

I don't want us to be like them and the wording of some responses on those threads makes me worry that we're turning into them.

Hopefully it won't happen. I think fanfiction helps us to channel our frustrations creatively. :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

I hear you, Frell, I hear you.

Joss created the most magical and fascinating ship in the history of TV (IMO, of course). But "the thing about magic? There's always consequences. Always!" We're still suffering them.

*hugs*

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

That was a lovely letter, Lena (I love your name!)

*Blushes and bows*

fingers crossed for a Spike guest star

Heh. If only we could avoid tons of hate mail and Spike-bashing...

You know what's funny? In his letter Scott Allie mentions that in season 8 Shawler (the Spike-hater whose letter they printed) only loves issue 5. And it's my favorite issue. It's so weird. Judging by his attitude we see BtVS from opposite positions. Where is that common ground that made us both love that issue? *shrugs*

Character-bashing is an awful, awful thing in my book whoever that character was (unless it's a villain like Warren) and sadly, it's been a massive Spike-hate over there in SlayAlive after the latest incident. I was pointing out to someone that he can't call Spike a rapist, murderer after he got a soul and he replied that he's entitled to his opinion, I was like, "Oooookay, you're that type of fan." :) You can't reason with a biased hater no matter what you did. *shrug*

I need to reread your "Interviews with characters fans and bashers". They help to see things in perspective. :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

По правде говоря, я сама удивилась, когда Скотт Элли мне ответил, да еще так быстро. Вообще у американцев, похоже, иной этикет в общении с фанами. У нас в редакции, например, запрещено вступать в прямой контакт с читателями. И я понимаю, почему. Потому что сожрут. :)

Насчет 8.15 - не знаю. Нет настроения.

Но зато я прочитала пилот "Кукольного домика" и теперь жду его как манны небесной.

[deird1]

"would you let your little sister date Spike", whilst endorsing Buffy/Angel

Yeah - it's sort of "would you let your little sister date a potential rapist, or would you prefer her with the guy who stalks her mother and tortures her surrogate father?"

In my opinion the better question would be "would you like your sister date a guy who will lose his soul because he loves her? Or would you want her to date the guy who will love her so much he'll earn his soul back?"

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

I agree, interacting with fans is a double-edged sword. On one hand, the opinions in online fandom don't necessarily reflect opinions of casual fans. OTOH, when one of PTB posts on a fan board, he inadvertently endorses this or that segment of fandom simply by expressing his opinion. Like Buffy used to say, "it's complicated." :)

[moscow-watcher.livejournal.com]

*curtseys*