Exploration of demon's humanity
Mar. 14th, 2008 02:33 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
moscow_watcherDark Horse forums became a place of interesting discussion lately and I couldn't keep my big mouth shut. While current debates mostly focus on "OOC or not OOC", this one is a bit different. Was humanizing demons a mistake from Joss' part?
On Dark Horse Forums Inthenameofmbi wrote
Joss made a terrible mistake there. That was the beginning of the end for good casting/character choices for the series. You can't just start "exploring humanity" with a character that was already established as an evil demon just because he had one OOC episode. That was a mistake that cost the show everything in the end. Bad Joss! Be more respectful of your creations next time. [/pretends Joss is listening]
I replied:
I also happen to think that Joss has made an enormous strategical mistake.
But I tend to think he made it a bit earlier - when he conceived and executed the Angelus arc. By introducing Angelus Joss had frozen the show in a simplified "us good them bad" moral attitude. That's why I think that Angelus arc, being brilliant per ce, paradoxically had an overall crippling effect on the show. Joss and Co should have depicted Angelus more controversially, showed him struggling with his emotions, his confusion and desperation at the face of love.
I think that by season 2 it became obvious that BtVS is an epic show with bigger-than-life characters and bigger-than-life situations. In this epic dimension demons are incredibly compelling and fascinating; their scale of personality is bigger; their journeys are more rewarding.
In this situation it would be logical to develop and explore demon characters more closely, experiment with them more creatively, make them interact with humans to make human characters grow. Yet with the introduction of Angelus this option became practically impossible.
During season 3 Joss has been hopelessly stuck with the only "limited" monster - werewolf Oz. (Interesting side note: all the male demons in the regular cast have a creative streak. Angel is an artist, Spike is a poet, Oz is a musician. Self-identificating much?)
Only in s4 of BVS/s1 of AtS Joss has finally broke free from Angelus curse and introduced a new concept: demons, like humans, are different. Doyle on AtS, Spike and Anya on BtVS - they became the elements of the new world Joss needed in order to tell his new stories. More complex. More subtle. And, IMHO, more fascinating and compelling.
Should Joss adhere to black-and-white position he proclaimed in the first episode of the show? I'm not sure. All I'm sure - that in the latter case we woudln't be here, still discussing the show that has ended 5 years ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I realise that my post was a bit provocative and I'm curious what my f-list thinks...
On Dark Horse Forums Inthenameofmbi wrote
Joss made a terrible mistake there. That was the beginning of the end for good casting/character choices for the series. You can't just start "exploring humanity" with a character that was already established as an evil demon just because he had one OOC episode. That was a mistake that cost the show everything in the end. Bad Joss! Be more respectful of your creations next time. [/pretends Joss is listening]
I replied:
I also happen to think that Joss has made an enormous strategical mistake.
But I tend to think he made it a bit earlier - when he conceived and executed the Angelus arc. By introducing Angelus Joss had frozen the show in a simplified "us good them bad" moral attitude. That's why I think that Angelus arc, being brilliant per ce, paradoxically had an overall crippling effect on the show. Joss and Co should have depicted Angelus more controversially, showed him struggling with his emotions, his confusion and desperation at the face of love.
I think that by season 2 it became obvious that BtVS is an epic show with bigger-than-life characters and bigger-than-life situations. In this epic dimension demons are incredibly compelling and fascinating; their scale of personality is bigger; their journeys are more rewarding.
In this situation it would be logical to develop and explore demon characters more closely, experiment with them more creatively, make them interact with humans to make human characters grow. Yet with the introduction of Angelus this option became practically impossible.
During season 3 Joss has been hopelessly stuck with the only "limited" monster - werewolf Oz. (Interesting side note: all the male demons in the regular cast have a creative streak. Angel is an artist, Spike is a poet, Oz is a musician. Self-identificating much?)
Only in s4 of BVS/s1 of AtS Joss has finally broke free from Angelus curse and introduced a new concept: demons, like humans, are different. Doyle on AtS, Spike and Anya on BtVS - they became the elements of the new world Joss needed in order to tell his new stories. More complex. More subtle. And, IMHO, more fascinating and compelling.
Should Joss adhere to black-and-white position he proclaimed in the first episode of the show? I'm not sure. All I'm sure - that in the latter case we woudln't be here, still discussing the show that has ended 5 years ago.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I realise that my post was a bit provocative and I'm curious what my f-list thinks...
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(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-14 11:51 am (UTC)Of course he has demons, who are not vampires, as good guys. Friendly Chem and Lorne mainly. I often thought that Angel (and Spike), should've been human hunters. Maybe Angel could've gone to help Buffy, and Spike could've been a kind of rogue one. Maybe with issues with the Watchers Council. The Vampire Slayer in love with a vampire just didn't crack it for me.....and the idea that they are soulmates, *sudder*
I don't mind that Joss had grey areas, in fact it was one of the things I liked in AtS, but BtVS was younger. It might've been romantic, but it was unimaginative. One of the reasons Bangel does nothing for me, among many.
(no subject)
Date: 2008-03-14 12:17 pm (UTC)Interesting option. But not as tragic and poignant and cheesy and kitschy as "Vampire Slayer in love with a vampire" option. I suppose Joss composed BtVS on opera terms. Great passions, great highs and lows, enormous stakes - the fate of the world, no less...
I don't mind that Joss had grey areas, in fact it was one of the things I liked in AtS, but BtVS was younger. It might've been romantic, but it was unimaginative.
Yes, BtVS has started as a show for teenagers. It grew, it became more adult with time, it's audience changed. Many people who watch it on DVDs seem to be more invested in complexities of AtS.
I thought that Angelus arc was rather imaginative, especially for American culture fixed on happy endings. But the "soulless = 100% evil" set-up was limiting and stifling for BtVD universe.