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[personal profile] moscow_watcher
Buffy issue #5 The Chain or "There Is No Truth. There's Just What You Believe".

I was procrastinating with this review because, frankly, after 5 or 6 reads I still don't know what to think of it. Is it а flashy piece of entertainment or a dark, twisted tale about the horrors of slayerhood?

Summary:

"Buffy Summers..." says an unsympathetic demon in a close-up on the inner cover...

"...is dead!" he finishes on the next (first) page where we find his name: he's Yamanh of Hoht. He's underground, surrounded by his minions and he is celebrating his victory.

"The funny part about all this?" dying Slayer thinks. "I never even met her".

The next pages are her flashbacks - fragmentary and disjointed.

Buffy-2 talks to a fairy who obviously lives underground too. Fairy asks the girl to leave. "I leave, Yamanh'll bring his whole army upstairs and that's what I was sent here to stop... Get to the surface, tell them he's massing and where. Tell them they have to hit him now". "I didn't lay my faerie eggs inside your inner ear canal to watch you die" fairy replies, then clarifies "It's not fatal. And I didn't do it... I love you, Buffy".

"Here's how it works" the voiceover starts. "You don't get a choice".

"It's so unfair. It's faschism is what it is" Buffy-2, or, rather, Future Anonimous Slayer says. She sits with her classlmates in front of the school and, as it turns out, she considers faschism their detention "because Holly "Trampo" Braeburn leaves her panties in the utility closet". Girls then discuss "Mike Billenger" - another extra who has a name. FAS mentions faschism again. And then Willow's spell strucks her.

She sees herself flying upside down in a line of other slayers. Obviously it's her slayer vision. Turns out for some slayers "it's a tickle" but for Buffy-2 "becoming a Slayer was like Mike Tyson in your face... the truth. The unbelievable truth".

"There is no truth", says a woman who looks like love child of Rona and Jasmine (which is kind of creepy because Jasmine wanted to create faschist utopia on AtS).

The next panel represents a TV ad with Andrew (and Vi?) recruiting newly turned slayers ("girls who has this alarming yet fun condition"). Buffy-2 meets them, starts training with other girls, experiences true sisterhood, sees chained demon, listens to Giles' lectures. Buffy-2's voiceovers often conflict with images: for example, she looks at chained demon and thinks about Giles' visit and him being well-known man.

Another underground sequence. Nasty-looking creature says "it's been so long since I ate anything sun-ripened" - and gets his arm cut off by Buffy-2's sword. "Tell Yamanh of my extraordinary mercy", Buffy-2 says. "Tell him Buffy Summers is coming for him".

Panel of Buffy-2 hit by Willow's spell. Panel of Giles talking about the Chain. Panels of slayers fighting vampires. Buffy-2 gets bitten on the neck - exactly where Buffy had been bitten.

Again we see a woman who looks like love child of Rona and Jasmine. She asks Buffy-2 "to become Buffy". "Have to pad the bra a little, but..." (What?!! Please, somebody, send this issue to SMG - she'll get a good laugh!!!)

Rona\Jasmine explains Buffy-2' mission: "It's deep cover and it's unbelievably dangerous. We know next-to-nothing about the under-community except they're strong and they might be headed up. Yamanh's the name down there... a decoy might keep him occupied, might do some internal damage", Rona\Jasmine says. "... you want the truth. As in..."

"Why me?" This caption appears on the panel where Buffy-2 plunges into a black hole, but it's a Rona\Jasmine's voiceover. She rhetorically asks if Buffy-2 was chosen because she's the strongest or because she's expendable. "There is no truth", Rona\Jasmine concludes. "There's just what you believe".

Buffy-2 is standing inside the cave, a torch in her hand. Then she's lying naked on the ground with fairies flying around her. A weird greenish creature, a hybrid of turtle and jellyfish says she has passed the test. Buffy-2 tries to persuade them to fight Yamanh's troops together. "You are throwing us to the wolves" turtle\jellyfish says. "The wolves are here", Buffy-2 says. "But you have each other. You have a will to survive". Fairies and turtle\jellyfish agree to help her.

"The Slayer. She will truly face the blackness?" one of them inquires.

"... Not turn and run back for the light?" fairy goes on, but her "voiceover" sounds on the next panel with Buffy-2 lying on the ground in the school yard.

And we find out that seconds after turning into a slayer she had saved her classmates from a truck that had somehow driven into a schoolyard at full speed. (I suppose the scene was inserted to nip in the bud the argument that it was Buffy-2's slayerhood that killed her; if she hadn't got slayer strength, she'd be killed by the truck 18 months earlier).

...And, obviously, fighting Yamanh is similar to fighting a truck. Buffy-2 is losing the battle. Around them demons, fairies, turtles, some black-winged creatures are fighting.

"There is always a name," Buffy-2 thinks. "Lincoln. Hitler. Gandhi. The name can inspire terror, awe... sometimes great things. But there's millions of people go into making a name. People facing things they couldn't imagine they would. In the moments that matter even our own names are just sounds people make to tell us apart. What we are isn't that. The real questions run deeper. Can I fight? Did I help? Did I do for my sister? My comrades, children, slimy slug-clan?"

Yamanh lifts dead slayer's body in the air as other slayers start a landing operation and attack demons from above.

"There is a chain between each and every one of us. And like the man said, you either feel its tug or you ignore it. I tried to feel it. I tried to face the darkness like a woman and I don't need any more than that. You don't have to remember me."

She lies - or soars - in white nothingness.

"But I do".

Analysis:

Starting from season 4, Joss was making one stylistical exercise a year. Hush was an attempt to recreate the mood of a silent movie. Spiral was a modern western. Once More With Feeling - a musical. Storyteller - an exploration on reality TV, Buffy-style. And now we have The Chain stylized as MTV clip.

After reading it several times I think that Joss has chosen this form very carefully. His story is incredibly compelling - but only when you're too disoriented to think about it rationally. I read it several times - and every time when I was reading from beginning to end I started crying during the final voiceover. This is true master-class. The reader is perfectly conditioned to feel sorrow for the dead slayer and anger against Yamanh.

But as soon as you start to recall the events in a linear way you get totally different picture. The Slayer organization or people who act on its behalf send a girl underground with an assignment to "keep occupied" a leader of demon community and "to do some internal damage". The wording is very careful, but if we drop euphemisms, she is sent as a saboteur. She arrives underground and... We don't know how much time she spends there. But we know that she passes an obscure test conducted by a weird creature; confronts a demon of some small variety and uses him to announce her arrival and her intention to fight Yamanh; she finds out there are many species who live underground - fairies, slimy slugs, black-winged creatures; she convinces them to start a war with the demon clan. Then she sends a fairie upstairs to announce that slayers must strike immediately. She leads all the other species in the battle against demons and, in the crucial moments other slayers arrive and, obviously, win the battle. Now the territory that belonged to demons become Slayers-controlled or Slayers-influenced zone.

Rings a bell?

The most interesting is the fact that Joss never explicitly demonstrates that Yamanh and his clan deserve to be exterminated. We don't see then committing atrocities to other species. The Council woman admits that they don't know anything about them "except they're strong and they might be headed up". Not "plan", not "are ready to" - but only "might". The other species sound hostile to Yamanh - but they're no fluffy puppies themselves. Slimy slag kills those who don't pass its test while Jossverse fairies are distant relatives of Alien Queen who also lays her eggs into human flesh.

The next-to-most interesting is the fact that I haven't seen a single review of issue 5 that asks if Slayers organization is right. There are some debates about sending a girl to a certain death, but nobody questions if it's OK to invade a territory, inhabited by other species and establish there your own rules. People who, without doubt, condemn Bush's intervention in Iraq, don't see anything wrong with it.

After all, they're just demons. They're not us, humans. They're our natural enemy, right?

Um... no. To quote Anya, "There's a lot of different kinds. Some are very, very evil. And some have been considered to be useful members of society." (BtVS 5.06 Family) Besides, since Selfless we know that demons have souls (thank you, mr. Goddard!). And in issue 3 Giles meets with a demon who also had been framed by The New Initiative, and they agree to exchange useful information.

So - there is an alternative to war within the comics frame. Yet Buffy-2's actions lead to a full-scale confrontation and slayer invasion.

We don't know what happened between Buffy-2's glimpses of memories. She could discover that Yamanh is a tyrant and oppressor who actually plans to destroy the world. Or she could find nothing compromising about his community and then provoke him to strike back at her because of her subversive activity (since one of her assignments was sabotage).

Then again, we don't know if the invasion is a good or bad thing for humanity. When Rona\Jasmine give Buffy-2's assignment she admits that the Slayer organization knows next-to-nothing about under-community. But Buffy-2's actions destabilize the balance of power in the underworld. And - who knows - maybe now fairies, no longer deterred by demons, will come upstairs and start laying their eggs into humans' ears.

We don't know if Giles has given Rona his blessing to invade the under-community or he doesn't know about her actions. All we know that from Buffy's POV there is a choice (only 500 slayers work for the Slayer organization) but Buffy-2, conditioned by Rona\Jasmine, thinks there is no choice.

So - is Buffy-2 a hero, a victim of the Slayers organization or a monster who has started the war?

Could she be all the three options? Tricky question.

Joss is giving us a lot of space for interpretation. Maybe even too much space.

One can easily see Buffy-2 as unadulterated hero who fights the forces of darkness. Demons bad, fairies good, Slayers organization is wise and just, the future belongs to good guys, i.e. the slayers.
One can pretty easily see Buffy-2 as hero-victim - a brave, bright girl who got killed because she was sent alone to fight against an army of bad guys.
But it's much more difficult to see and accept her as hero-victim-monster. Can people who invade foreign country and kill it's citizens be perceived as heroes? Americans who invaded Vietnam, Russians who invaded Afganistan - can we call them heroes? I think, yes, they were heroes - and, at the same time, they were victims and monsters. Because, to quote Joss, "hero is someone who gets other people killed" (says the woman with Jasmine's face in Serenity). And war heroes usually are people with with the biggest body count.

And, at the same time, they are the stuff of legends. The inspiration for storytellers.

I don't know if this issue has been explored in comics, but American genre literature has great stories about hero-monster dichotomy,I'm a Legend by Richard Matheson being the best example. If The Chain is the continuation of this tradition, Buffy-2 may fight the wrong cause but for the right reasons and still be a hero. A tragic hero.

I can't keep from drawing a parallel with Tatzu - a titular hero of a song by brilliant Russian singer Nastya Poleva.(in Russian; download here) Tatzu was 13 years old when he had been sent as a patrol on a small uninhabited island. The boy was trained to serve his emperor and he was proud of his duty. The next year war was over, emperor was dethroned, but Tatzu continued his patrol. He spent all his life on the island, ready to send a signal about enemy's approach.

For me, Tatzu is the ultimate existential hero. Could Buffy-2 be his sister?

I'm reading and rereading the arguments on this thread and I'm asking myself if I'm overcomplicating and Buffy-2 as hero-victim-monster exists only in my head. I'm rereading the scene where Buffy-2, instead of killing the demon lets him go to his leader to announce that "Buffy Summers is coming for him" and I can't decide if it's a case of flashy storytelling or a hint that Buffy-2' actual assignment was to provoke war.

From RL standpoint it's an incontestable provocation. Even if Yamanh wasn't planning the war, after Buffy-2's declaration he has to start preparations. He can't let the enemy catch him unawares. But should we suspend our disbelief and perceive the story like... well... a story? And accept that she orders the demon to tell Yamanh that Buffy Summers is coming for him, because it's just a requisite flashy phrase hero usually says to demonstrate his/her coolness. And reason that nasty-looking demons are bad guys just because they're, you know, demons? And Buffy-2 is an unadulterated hero because she's the protagonist?

How far our suspension of disbelief should go? So far, I can't decide if we should dismiss subversive nature of Buffy-2's assignment as a genre convention or assume that it's another subtle indication that slayers are really becoming a threat for humanity.

We'll find it out in - how many? - three? five years? - when season 8 will be over. In MTV age three years equals a century.

And I still can't figure out why Joss has chosen this unusual narrative form. One can argue that in the MTV era it's logical to experiment with a comic in MTV style. Or that Joss just finds pleasure in being the ultimate unreliable narrator.

But could it be a subtle exploration of propaganda mechanisms? A tattered poster on the variant cover is very telling - as well as the the mention of faschism. Look, says Joss, the power of passionate, inspired storytelling can convince anybody to believe in anything. You can make people believe that invasion is good. You only have to highlight favorable facts, omit everything else and use expressive, emotional narrative style. And be talented like Joss.

We're lucky Joss doesn't work for Bin Laden.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-11 08:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] empresspatti.livejournal.com
I love your always intelligent commentary.

And I still can't figure out why Joss has chosen this unusual narrative form.

I have the worst feeling he chose this narrative form because he didn't have much work anyplace else and has no chance of ever bringing the 'verse back to television or movie form. This is the only medium left to him.

Aaaurg! I miss the show....

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-11 09:02 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
I miss it terribly too. I want to see actors' faces!

I wonder if Joss has ever wanted to write a novel about Buffy. Graphic images affect more strongly, but words, in my opinion, can convey the ideas and emotions more subtly and deeply.

But I may be wrong - I'm not used to reading comics, I prefere books.
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 06:00 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
I discovered that I can read comics as a separate universe. Funnily, I don't feel any indignation at the thought that comic!Buffy may find her happiness with comic!Xander. Or Satsu. Or Yamanh.

For me, the Buffy with Sarah's face loves the Spike with James' face. The other Buffies and Spikes are irrelevant to their story. It's like a fanfiction: you read the information about the pairing before you start reading and you know that the Buffy in fic A loves Angel, the Buffy in fic B loves Spike and the Buffy in fic C loves Faith. And nobody gets frustrated because of these Buffies choosing the "wrong" partner.
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-17 12:29 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
But I feel it's kind of fanfic claiming to be canon and that gets on my nerves.

According to philosophy, displayed in The Chain, if you believe that comics are fanfic, they are fanfic no matter what Joss says. Because "there is no truth, there's just what you believe".

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-11 08:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] semby.livejournal.com
Very interesting post! You've definitely presented arguments and viewpoints that hadn't even occurred to me. Thanks for the perspective/insight!

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-11 09:22 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Thanks for compliment! The deeper I delve into Jossverse the more unfathomable it seems to me.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-11 11:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marvelgirl-art.livejournal.com
васкез, я комикс скачала, но даже ни разу не прочла. не могу я втянуться в этот так называемый "сезон".

но!

я регулярно читаю твои комментарии и мысли по поводу. у тебя очень интересный и серьезный подход к содержанию этих книжек с картинками. и проблемы, затронутые там, действительно иногда кажутся очень глобальными. я только боюсь, что на самом деле все так, как в свое время говорил картер: "люди видят в моем сериале такие серьезные вещи, о которых я в момент написания сценария и не думал даже".

п.с. и почти офф-топиком: а почему ты зои назвала the woman with Jasmine's face in Serenity? не принципиально, конечно, но мне это показалось очень уж странным. и не совсем, прости... адекватным. это намеренно? или ты просто имя забыла?

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 07:55 am (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Насчет Зои.

Понимаешь, у меня ощущение, что в Джасмин и Кэйлеб Джосс карикатурно преломил Зои и Мэла. Мэл не может примириться с профессией Инары. Кэйлеб идет дальше: он всех женщин считает шлюхами. У Зои обостренное чувство справедливости и она ухитряется остаться идеалисткой даже когда дела идут из рук вон плохо. Джасмин идет дальше: она хочет создать идеальное общество, в котором все будут счастливы.

Какие арки готовил Джосс для Мэла и Зои? Зная склонности Великого и Ужасного можно с большой долей вероятности предположить, что рано или поздно героям пришлось бы пройти "темную" фазу. "Светляк" прикрыли, но идеи остались и, скорее всего, терзали Джосса. Он не мог впихнуть их в фильм: это типично сезонные арки, на них нужно гораздо больше времени. И тогда он, сознательно или бессознательно "пересадил" их на чужую почву, сохранив лица, но карикатуризировав характеры.

Конечно, это только мое сугубо субъективное мнение, и вполне возможно, у Джосса были совершенно другие намерения - но именно идея об этой гротескной преемственности Зои и Джасмин заставила меня назвать Зои "женщиной с лицом Джасмин".

И насчет комиксов. Я стараюсь придерживаться принципа "нет плохих форм и жанров - есть только плохое искусство", но признаюсь честно, комиксы идут у меня с большим скрипом. Меня бесит эта "промежуточность" между книгой и кино. Я привыкла либо все воображать сама на основании текста, либо все получать в готовом виде "как в жизни" - то есть образы реальных людей, действующих в реальном времени. Поэтому комиксы для меня по-прежнему "ни Богу свечка, ни черту кочерга" - стоп-кадры с условными фигурками и субтитрами в непривычных углах экрана.
Но я постепенно втягиваюсь. На "Цепи" я по-настоящему прослезилась в конце. :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 11:42 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marvelgirl-art.livejournal.com
с одной стороны, да, читаю и думаю: параллели и сходство между персонажами наблюдается. но с другой - подумала, подумала, и как-то разум отказывается подыгрывать. для меня мэл/кэлеб и зои/джасмин - настолько разные на эмоциональном уровне персонажи, что окончательно сложить из этих пар две единицы мне не удается. особенно в случае с зои.

вот мэл топал во тьму семимильными шагами. это, кстати, даже в сериале было не так заметно, как в фильме. в фильме для меня это было очевидным: выброшенный и позже застреленный парень в городе, где они банк грабили; трупы, привязанные к серенити. по мне, так это были чуть ли не самые серьезные психологические моменты картины (ну, возможно, потому что я никогда особо не воспринимала героиню саммер как нечто серьезное и захватывающее. мне, в конечном итоге, всегда более интересны психологические перемены вполне обычных людей, безо всяких супер-способностей). но, тем не менее, кэлеб - это что-то запредельное.

впрочем, опять же, я не считаю себя правой в этом вопросе, более того, как там говорится - "ход ваших мыслей мне нравится")) посему я с удовольствием послушаю, какие у тебя еще есть идеи на счет параллельности вселенных джосса))

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 01:46 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Думаю, тут дело не в параллельности вселенных, а в особенностях творческого процесса. У тебя наверняка бывает так, что ты хочешь использовать какую-то идею в очередной манипе, но потом видишь, что эта идея здесь не подходит. И идея остается без приложения. А потом ты делаешь другую манипу и примериваешь на нее эту идею. И в конце концов идея либо перегорает, либо находит приложение. Мне кажется, у Джосса произошло то же самое, когда прикрыли "Светляка". Идей осталось громадье, а куда их прикладывать?

Впрочем, это, конечно, типичный wank, никоим образом не претендующий на звание истины. Просто приятно поговорить о Джоссе. Скоро комиксовый 6 сезон "Ангела" начнется - то-то интересно будет... :)))

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] marvelgirl-art.livejournal.com
не, про творческий процесс и неиспользованные идеи я все понимаю. но вот как раз такое объяснение меня и смущает. не думаю, что если б "светляк" продолжали снимать, то мэл или, уж тем более, зои дошли "до жизни такой" и стали кэлебом и джасмин. такие метаморфозы - это через чур. это все равно что, по версии вселенной "светляка", превратиться в одичавшего reavers'а (как их там на русский переводили?), а сериал все же центрировался на истории девочки с нечеловеческими способностями мозга)) не смотря на то, что в титрах она была последней, а мэл - первым. акцент все равно сдвигался. в то же время, мэл - главный герой, и тут уж каким бы садистом не был джосс, но даже он бы не превратил мэла в кровожадного дикаря. ибо процесс обратного превращения - нонсенс. тупик. смерть для персонажа. а даже из соображений чисто денежных "убийство" такого персонажа - это не выгодно для сериала в целом.

я, наверное, путано все объясняю. это как раз одна из основных причин, почему я не люблю виртуальные дискуссии. клавиатурой трудно передать мысль и идею)) почему-то когда мы встречаемся, ты всегда какая-то неразговорчивая и не делишься такими интересными идеями, чтоб можно было их обсудить лицом к лицу))

про ангела. я, если честно, с опаской жду это "это". во-первых, как и ты, не воспринимаю жанр комикса. у меня идея книжек с картинками, хоть тресни, не вызывает серьезного отношения к себе. а во-вторых, мне просто страшно, что там сейчас понарисуют. мне нравится финал 5 сезона. как бы не было жалко уэса (я до сих пор способна разрыдаться от одного воспоминания о сцене его гибели), и как бы ужасно все не выглядело для наших мальчиков и девочки, для меня это логичный конец замечательной, серьезной, интересной и поучительной истории. не хочу я, чтоб изложения комиксов обесценили в моих глазах все произошедшее и все выводы, что я для себя сделала. а что-то мне подсказывает, что именно так и получится.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 07:13 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
не думаю, что если б "светляк" продолжали снимать, то мэл или, уж тем более, зои дошли "до жизни такой" и стали кэлебом и джасмин.

Я тоже так не думаю. Но, скорее всего, они шли бы в этом направлении, хотя их метаморфозы были бы менее радикальными. Я думаю, Мэл получил бы возможность как-то повлиять на Инару, чтобы она рассталась с профессией компаньонки, и не обошлось бы без последствий, одно цеплялось бы за другое, и получилась бы огромная куча агнста. А у Зои было бы искушение навести порядок и восстановить справедливость. И она, будучи идеалисткой, начала бы ее восстанавливать, и увязла бы по уши в грязи. И, скорее всего, Джосс привел бы ее к ситуации, когда ради счастья многих нужно убить немногих.

Впрочем, кто знает? :)))

я, наверное, путано все объясняю. это как раз одна из основных причин, почему я не люблю виртуальные дискуссии. клавиатурой трудно передать мысль и идею)) почему-то когда мы встречаемся, ты всегда какая-то неразговорчивая и не делишься такими интересными идеями, чтоб можно было их обсудить лицом к лицу))

Ничего не путано, все понятно. Мне как раз гораздо легче и приятнее дискутировать письменно. Особенно на такие неоднозначные темы. Можно подумать. А потом перечитать и что-то добавить.

мне нравится финал 5 сезона. как бы не было жалко уэса (я до сих пор способна разрыдаться от одного воспоминания о сцене его гибели), и как бы ужасно все не выглядело для наших мальчиков и девочки, для меня это логичный конец замечательной, серьезной, интересной и поучительной истории. не хочу я, чтоб изложения комиксов обесценили в моих глазах все произошедшее и все выводы, что я для себя сделала. а что-то мне подсказывает, что именно так и получится.

Из свеженького джоссова интервью:

AVC: Why did the TV series ending mandate killing off Wesley?
JW: Because it was awesome. The writers pitched it, with Illyria turning into Fred, and I was like, "Uh, okay, we have to do that, really, now." You squeeze all the juice out that you can. That was one of my favorite moments that we shot. If you're going to go out, go out hard. If you just go, "Well, off to another mystery. Here we are, arm in arm," that ain't an ending.
AVC: Do you regret making that decision, since you're planning to continue the series after all?
JW: Most people in my universe get more work after they're dead. Look at Harmony. If we had suddenly been given a reprieve, there would not have been a single episode without Wesley in it, dead or not. He'd have been given an eleventh-hour stay of execution. That has to do with my love of Wesley, and let's face it, my love of Alexis Denisof, who is, apart from being a dream to work with, staggeringly versatile.

Кстати, все интервью интересное - оч. рекомендую

http://www.avclub.com/content/interview/joss_whedon/1

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 02:12 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sum1-different.livejournal.com
Killing off Wesley was dumb and destructive and Illyria pretending to be Fred for him was gross and implied he was more attached to the physical body of Fred than to the real person.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 02:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sum1-different.livejournal.com
(I've got major issues with Not Fade Away.)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 06:12 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
I'm one of those crazy fans who love spectacular, showy deaths. I adore Chosen and NFA. Although I can understand fans who are frustrated with deaths of their beloved characters.

But for me, it's great because it wakes up fans' creativity and makes them continue the 'verse. I adore fanfiction and I think that Joss has given us a true bounty - a rich, multilayered universe with so many things to fix! :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-17 02:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sum1-different.livejournal.com
Deaths can be fine if they're done right or fit in, but killing characters just for the sake of killing characters is just dumb. As regards Chosen, my issues with it aren't over killing characters. As regards NFA, I have a long list of issues with it, and the character deaths, which I feel were done badly, are just a small part of my issues with the ep.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-17 12:17 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
In my opinion, the scene of Wesley's death was perfectly conceived and executed. While the final battle is an illustration of the idea of neverending fight, Wesley\Frilliria scene, in my opinion is Joss' take on the nature of art. "Better the illusions that exalt us than 10000 truths" (Pushkin).

And, in a way, this scene is connected with the theme of the issue 5: "There is no truth. There's just what you believe".

Also I love a good cry and I cry every time I watch it. Which, I think, was Joss' intention.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 12:23 am (UTC)
ext_2333: "That's right,  people, I am a constant surprise." (Default)
From: [identity profile] makd.livejournal.com
Interesting and thought-provoking. This reminds me of a number of discussions I've had with scholar-fen at The Slayage and at PC conferences, about the metaphor Joss uses for demons and vampires being the same as the way many white Americans think about immigrants and ethnic minorities....

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 07:13 am (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
I think some of the debates are rooted in the structure of the fandom. Certain number of fans came to BtVS from the universe of soap-operas and the tend to judge the events by soap-opera standards. While another, quite substantial part of fandom consists of fans of sci-fi shows - Star Trek, Babylon 5 etc. These shows are much less antropocentric than BtVS and never assume that humans are right just because they're humans.

IMO, these two parts of fandom sometimes collide because they judge Jossverse by different standards. And, to be fair, Jossverse is pretty inconsistent towards demons. While BtVS is closer to soap-opera and is very antropocentric, AtS is closer to sci-fi shows igeologically, as demons are never demonized by default on that show.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 12:48 am (UTC)
ext_15284: a wreath of lightning against a dark, stormy sky (Default)
From: [identity profile] stormwreath.livejournal.com
Thinking about it, I do believe the ambiguity is deliberate. As you know from my comments in the other thread, I don't agree that the writer actually intends for us to see *Buffy's actions as flat-out wrong. I do think we're supposed to question them, though; to acknowledge the possibility that they might be wrong. That when General Voll criticised the Slayers in the previous issue, he really did have a point.

And yes, perhaps Joss did write this comic as a subtle criticism of the Iraq war and the people who blindly support it. :-)

For the record, I believe:
1) Yamanh and his people really were out to kill everybody not like them; the threat from them wasn't made up. (I've no real evidence for this, just genere convention and my belief in what Joss was trying to say).
2) Yes, *Buffy did spare that demon's life in order to provoke war. But it was a war that Yamanh was going to start anyway; *Buffy just made it happen faster, before he was fully ready.


After all, they're just demons. They're not us, humans. They're our natural enemy, right? Um... no.

I can answer that point by pointing to the fairies and slugs. By Buffyverse terminology, I'm sure they count as demons; and as you point out, they do have some nasty habits. But they're apparently the sort of demons who just want to get on with their lives and keep to themselves. They're Clem, not Acathla. The implication is that the Slayers are willing to ally with the not-too-bad demons to beat the really-bad demons.

Even so, this is the Buffyverse, and that means that there really is Evil that wants to destroy the world, and must be fought. In that context, I can sympathise with your suggestion that Yamanh is really the victim here, but I can't really share it. Perhaps it's just that I'm more willing to accept the things Rona and *Buffy say at face value?

Even so, I quite agree that fighting evil is not unproblematic. Zoe says that "a hero is someone who gets other people killed" in 'Serenity'; later on, she and the others decide to be heroes anyway, and her own husband is killed as a consequence. Was it worth it? Should Zoe and Wash have decided not to get the message out about Miranda? Should they have handed over River to the Alliance? If they had, he (and Book) might have lived. So would all those Alliance personnel who died in the fleet fighting the Reavers. For that matter, even the Reavers "were innocent victims once."

As soon as you choose to engage actively with the world, you get your hands dirty. I think that's Joss's message. The question you have to decide for yourself is whether it's worth it.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 03:22 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
As soon as you choose to engage actively with the world, you get your hands dirty.

Or, to be more precise, as soon as you choose to engage actively with politics and war, you get your hands dirty. (people who work in the Red Cross are also engaged actively with the world).

Re Yamanh: I don't see him as a victim. I rather see him as a leader of a small Middle-East or African country. He has to be cruel because in a non-democratic society cruelty is the most effective power. His neighbors with quirky reproductive cycle should be kept in check because Hoht's people don't want to becomes fairies' incubators and won't respect the leader who can't guarantee the safety of their ears. :)

Now imagine that a big country like Russia or USA or China decides to increase it's influence in the region. As a rule, the situation becomes worse, no matter what politicians say. The balance of power is disrupted and civil war starts.

As you have mentioned in your LJ, Soviet invasion in Afganistan had had some positive results - f.ex. local women had got more rights. But the ultimate result was catastrophic for the country.

Let me specify again: I don't think that it's fair to judge magic world by RL standards. But I have a feeling that Joss wanted us to question the nature of Buffy-2's mission. What if she chose to support the wrong side? After all, Jossverse Santa disembowels children. Could Joss intentionally mention fairies' parasitic reproduction to make us think about them or did he do it just for laughs?

Oh by the way, [livejournal.com profile] ntshpp, who commented after you, compares Buffy-2 with Lawrence of Arabia and conjectures that by the end of her journey Buffy-2 was suicidal because she has started to realise the ambivalence of her mission.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 01:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ntshpp.livejournal.com
Спасибо!

Замечательный обзор и анализ.

«Americans who invaded Vietnam, Russians who invaded Afganistan - can we call them heroes?»
Простые солдаты были несомненно «тихими героями», они выполняли глупые приказы и шли на смерть ради призрачной цели. А вот Джонсон, Брежнев, Макнамара и Устинов – точно не были героями.

Да, я думаю что демоны «плохие» - от них одно зло. Идея была такой – Совет отправил Баффи2 под землю поднять восстание «подземников» против демонов (типа Лоренс аравийский) и когда они взаимно поистребляют друг друга, вмешаться и добить демонов. Одним махом семерых побивахом – уничтожены демоны, подземники ослабли, они благодарны слейерам за избавление от демонов и впечатлены их мощью. Думаю, Баффи2 чувствовала эту двойственность своей миссии и пошла в самоубийственный бой чтоб потом не терзаться муками совести.

Что-то с каждым выпуском, эта слейерская организация нравится мне все меньше и меньше.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-12 03:45 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Отличное сравнение с Лоуренсом Аравийским - как раз то, чего мне не хватало. Причем он, как и Баффи-2, был фриком (в те годы на гомосексуализм смотрели гораздо более косо) и, как и Баффи-2, принял ситуацию на Ближнем Востоке слишком близко к сердцу (у него на родине на это тоже посмотрели косо).

Мне ужасно интересно, действительно ли Джосс хотел создать такую двойственность, или само собой получилось. И будет ли это играть какую-то роль в дальнейшем развитии событий. Или все спишется на то, что это волшебный мир.

Насчет слеерской организации: любопытно, что после пяти выпусков мы о ней так ничего толком и не знаем.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-13 12:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ntshpp.livejournal.com
«Причем он, как и Баффи-2, был фриком (в те годы на гомосексуализм смотрели гораздо более косо)»

Мне вовсе не показалось, что Баффи2 была фриком и тем более гейем. Нормальная слейерша, из новых, смелая и с чутким сердцем.

Я в последнее время часто думаю – может Баффи2 спасли? Никаких особых повреждений на ней не было. После 8.04 и «спасения Уиллоу» от них всего можно ожидать. Д и смерть Ямана не показали, может он успел убежать.

«Buffy-2 gets bitten on the neck - exactly where Buffy had been bitten.»

Вампир куснул Баффи2 слева, а у настоящей Баффи шрам был справа. Баффи против Дракулы – «Ю хев бин тейстед!».

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-14 09:27 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Мне вовсе не показалось, что Баффи2 была фриком и тем более гейем. Нормальная слейерша, из новых, смелая и с чутким сердцем.

Я в переносном смысле. Она чувствовала, что она не такая как все. Она искала таких, как она сама, чтобы среди них чувствовать себя нормальной. По крайней мере, мне так кажется.

Вампир куснул Баффи2 слева, а у настоящей Баффи шрам был справа

Упс. А ведь действительно... Впрочем, авторов, похоже, такие детали не волнуют. :)
(deleted comment)
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 06:39 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Demons having souls came up in I Robot You Jane, in the first season -Moloch's soul getting trapped.
Oops. Thanks for correcting me. I remember that in season 1 vampires had souls but I forgot that demons also had them back then :)
(deleted comment)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 06:55 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
I find your theory interesting but I'm not sure if I buy it. IF Joss is trying to do what you suggest he is, then I think he didn't do it all that well.

I wish I knew what Joss was trying to do. :)

He could tell, using the Council woman's exposition, that the clan of Yamanh is very cruel and they have already killed somebody. But the woman says that they don't know anything about the undercommunity.

Imagine a member of a very advanced civilization who comes to Earth and meets by chance an American serial killer who says that it's been so long since he ate anything sun-ripened. Does it mean it's OK to help al-Kaeda to destroy Americans?

I don't insist I'm right. I'm just trying to figure it out.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 06:34 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
"The demon horde are eating you guys alive".

I suppose it was a figure of speech. Her words weren't supposed to mean that demons were gnawing on fairies feet while the latter were kicking and screaming.

Obviously, there was a lot of mutual hostility in the undercommunity. The fairies have parasitic method of reproduction, so the hostility could be justified (at least partly).

The biggest problem for me here is finding the right frame of reference.

Are we supposed to regard the events as a black\white "comics" universe with unambiguously good and unambiguously bad guys? Or we're supposed to analyse it from RL POV? In that case Buffy-2's mission is quite dubious: she penetrates foreign territory and starts a war between different species.

I live in a former communist country and I remember times when we were taught in schools that our goal is to achieve communism all over the world. According to that ideology, Soviet spys who organized communist revolutions in African and Latin American countries, were the ultimate heroes. But if we look at their activities from the POV of people who died in these revolutions, they were monsters.

But the question is - should we apply RL logic to comics universe? And if we apply traditional comics logic to The Chain, then Buffy-2 is a hero who valiantly fights against oppression.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 12:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sum1-different.livejournal.com
Btw, forgot to say: Interesting commentary.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-16 10:36 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Thanks!

No matter what Joss does, he provokes interesting discussions.

I recommend to read Stormwreth's essay Identity, Choice and Heroism - about the philosophy of The Chain

http://stormwreath.livejournal.com/21701.html

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-17 05:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] counteragent.livejournal.com
Wow! Very interesting thoughts. Far deeper than any I had--to be sure.

You're not wrong, though. In my heart I always want to root for Buffy and the Slayers, but it's true that individuals with as much power as they have ought to be watched closely, their motives examined ceaselessly.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-17 02:34 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Thanks! Sometimes I doubt that we're supposed to delve into comics so deeply. But my experience tells me that Jossverse is much more complex TV than many other shows. Every time I rewatch an episode, I see something I hadn't noticed before.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-18 02:15 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lilred26x.livejournal.com
An interesting take on this issue. When I read it, I just assumed that Yamanh was evil because why else would Buffy's organization want to wage war with him. Your thoughts make me think that I may be overlooking things. Particularly when I stop and think about the military guy's (can't remember his name) comment about Buffy needing to be stopped because she's got power issues (or something along that line). I enjoyed your thoughts on this issue. Thanks for sharing them!

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-22 05:24 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Thanks for compliments!

I suppose Yamanh was evil. But it wasn't him who has sent his agent upstairs to destroy Buffy Summers. It was her who was sent on his territory to destroy him. She's Che Guevara to Yamanh's dictator Batista, I suppose.

If we suspend our disbelief and look at the comics as pure genre piece, then Slayers' preventive war is justified. Because in adventure genre heroes are right by definition. But if we look at the events from RL position, then military guy is right: Slayer's organization has agressive policy and they should be stopped.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-26 12:10 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluekaty.livejournal.com
Hi, I haven't read this issue yet, still it was interesting to read your analysis and it made me very curious about Buffy 5, so I'll go back to it after reading the story.
BTW I friended you, I hope it's OK :)

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-26 02:54 pm (UTC)
ext_7259: (Default)
From: [identity profile] moscow-watcher.livejournal.com
Hey, I friended you back! The more friends the merrier. Hope you'll be able to read it soon. Have you tried to read Spike: Shadow Puppets? I like this comic a lot.

(no subject)

Date: 2007-08-26 10:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bluekaty.livejournal.com
Thanks for friending me back :)
No I haven't read Shadow Puppets but I would like too, from what I hear the Spike and Angel comics are better than the Buffy ones so I'll try to get them.

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