moscow_watcher | Buffy #24 (kinda) review

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Buffy #24 (kinda) review

I haven't written anything about issue #23 because, frankly, I felt I had nothing to say. The issue was ridiculous setting-wise and plot-wise, it had funny Andrew bits and it inequivocally demonstrated that Joss plans to tease shippers ad infinitum.

I was looking forward to issue 24 with certain trepidation, because recently I grew fond of Faith and I appreciate Richards' art more than Jeanty's. So, at least, I hoped to get a couple of decent Faith panels.

I got them. Richards' Faith is luscious, edgy, sexy and determined. Another plus is that she looks like Faith would look now. Like Eliza Dushku looks in Dollhouse. My favorite panel is the one on the train, where Faith says that the new slayers have the right to choose whether to fight or to live peacefully.

But the the plotting - or, rather, the concept - is more than clumsy. It goes against everything we know about vampires.

So, Faith and Giles meet a slayer who ran away from her squad. She tells them about a slayer sanctuary in Hanselstadt. Giles decides to find the place. They board a train ~~at platform 9-3/4~~ and arrive in a bucolic town where only old folks live. Turns out there is a demon in residence who feeds on fears and regrets. He eats children and slayers (yes, the "sanctuary" is a trap!) and, as a side-effect, protects the town from vampires.

Because, as an evil ex-Watcher declares, "the vampire is regret personified. A hunger for life that's been damned to never be satisfied." That's why vampires eschew Hanselstadt.

Huh?

Looks like the further into season 8 we go, the more we stray from the tired premise of vampires as pure evil. Now, vampires personify regrets. I'm curious if this new development was a one-issue plot necessity or a new trend.

The issue is more Giles-centric than Faith-centric.

shadowkat67 wrote an in-depth analysis of Giles' character development in this issue so I won't go there. Faith doesn't have much to do here. Of course, she fights the demon and with Giles' help she kills it but she doesn't face any of those controversial moral dilemmas that make Buffyverse so fascinating.

I wonder if the demon is supposed to work as a social commentary on the demographic situation in Europe where many places have negative natality rate, or, as

shadowcat67 thinks, a metaphor of regrets sucking the passion out of our souls. Or both.

Anyway. What bothers me is how uninspiring - to me - this story looks. Issue #24 is a typical MOTW one-shot. It features the characters I love - yet nothing of it lingers in my mind except a couple of beautiful Faith panels. I think I had the same problem with the previous issue - it was OK but there was nothing compelling in it.

I have the impression that this is the biggest problem with season 8. It's doomed to be either sensational or boring. There is no middle ground. To be compelling it has to be controversial. The comics don't grab me unless Buffy turns out to be a lesbian, or an enemy of humanity, or a bank robber. Or she (arguably) destroys the Fray timeline. Or?...

Writers have to up the ante with every issue to make the story compelling. How long could they do it until it fizzles out ot goes out of hand completely?

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This issue seems to have polarised opinion, with some people loving it and others being really, really hostile. I enjoyed it on its own merits as a classic Gothic horror story, but I don't think it had much to do with the Buffyverse or Season 8.

I wonder if the demon is supposed to work as a social commentary on the demographic situation in Europe where many places have negative natality rate

The other analogy that came to mind is the way the older generation send their children away to fight and die in wars in the name of protecting (their own) way of life. It can be seen as a metaphor for the Slayers pre-empowerment spell. The folk of Hanselstadt convinced themselves that they were doing the right thing, making sacrifices for the common good. You could also draw the analogy with what their parents did in the Germany of the 1930s, with the Watcher Fillworthe in the role of a certain other well-known leader of that period. (If, that is, you assume that the plan to deliberately feed children to the demon to protect the adults of the town was his idea, and they went along with it.)

(If, that is, you assume that the plan to deliberately feed children to the demon to protect the adults of the town was his idea, and they went along with it.)

My impression is that we;re supposed to think that they were feeding children to the demon for a long time.

The other analogy that came to mind is the way the older generation send their children away to fight and die in wars in the name of protecting (their own) way of life. It can be seen as a metaphor for the Slayers pre-empowerment spell. The folk of Hanselstadt convinced themselves that they were doing the right thing, making sacrifices for the common good.

Yes, I agree, there are many metaphorical reading of this situation, but I think it just Doesn't. Make. Sense. literally. People won't feed their children to a monster.

(I've just got the reply to the comment I left on your LJ). Yes, I think that the townsfolk could be (partially) hypnotyzed by the demon, although it's not in the text.

*shrugs*

Still, icky.

I have the impression that this is the biggest problem with season 8. It's doomed to be either sensational or boring. There is no middle ground. To be compelling it has to be controversial. The comics don't grab me unless Buffy turns out to be a lesbian, or an enemy of humanity, or a bank robber. Or she (arguably) destroys the Fray timeline. Or?...

Good point, Moscow. And I agree. This issue was very lacklustre and you could have substituted Faith and Giles for any character because there was nothing to distinguish them as Faith and Giles IMO.

Such a disappointment.

you could have substituted Faith and Giles for any character because there was nothing to distinguish them as Faith and Giles IMO.

I agree. There are so many interesting ways to develop Giles and Faith. But the characters just service a badly conceptualized plot based on a highly unprobable premise that people can feed their children to a monster.

Well I think that in the course of BtVS vampires have represented a lot of stuff besides pure evil.
Recently I read 'Twilight' (which I'll admit I disliked intensely) and I argued w/a friend that wanting to become a vampire was tantamount to wanting to commit suicide, because no vampire can grow or create or ever hope to be more than what they are. My friend disagreed 100% to her wanting to become a vampire was wanting to embrace sexual desire even if it is 'forbidden' or not what is accepted as normal. I think both of us got our attitudes from Buffy, and that both have merit.

This issue is focusing on one particular idea, and I'm assuming it will be referenced and gain in importance when Joss finally gets to the point. I think that Brian Lynch's comics were more exciting, and more tightly written, because he had a serious deadline for his arc and he couldn't waste time spinning out his tale for years and years. Joss is under no such constraint; I'm confident that he will tie everything together eventually (as he did w/Astonishing X-men) but heaven knows how long he'll take to get there!

I argued w/a friend that wanting to become a vampire was tantamount to wanting to commit suicide, because no vampire can grow or create or ever hope to be more than what they are. My friend disagreed 100% to her wanting to become a vampire was wanting to embrace sexual desire even if it is 'forbidden' or not what is accepted as normal. I think both of us got our attitudes from Buffy, and that both have merit.

Yes, I think BtVS is an interesting example of the artificial universe that is so rich that there are countless interpretations of it. I have been always intrigued by the fact that all the three BtVS demons who were in the regular cast (Angel, Spike, Oz) happened to be creative persons (artist, poet, musician). Was is random or intentional? Were demons supposed to personify our creative side? Our id as a source of inspiration?

I'm confident that he will tie everything together eventually (as he did w/Astonishing X-men) but heaven knows how long he'll take to get there!

Hopefully it will happen before I stop caring completely...

Oh, good thought about demons as artists/id. Hmm. Must think on that.

I'd been looking forward to reading #24, since I'd liked the last Faith/Giles arc, but....*shrugs*

To quote Evil!Willow...

Bored Now.

Agree, previous Faith-Giles adventures were much more interesting... :(

Well, at least I won't have to waste my money on buying it them.

Hee! You have the healthiest approach! :)

I'm afraid I'm right there with you in being disappointed. It wasn't a very good issue. Flat characterization, poorly executed premise and serious plot holes.

stormwreath said above that people were being hostile to this one and I imagine it might be directed at me as I've been the most vocal about the issue in the forums recently. I think everyone needs to draw a line between being disappointed with the issue though (which is what I am) and then discussing it on a forum and the debate/hostility that comes from that environment. The issue itself disappointed me to the point that I have no urge to read it again and I didn't enjoy it sadly. The only reason I've gone back to read it is for forum discussions, picking it apart analytically.

I'll be happy to move on the next issue and I'm hoping that Espenson has a better handle on the medium for the upcoming Retreat arc. This issue was a bucketful of meh to me.

I was thinking just now that perhaps the "regret" and vampires is more that a vampire's very existence is symbolic of regret. That they must feed on other life forces in order to survive. Regret typically is replaced for the word "sorry", but as it also means to "mourn" or "miss" perhaps it's more that vampires are symbolic of the regret of loss of life. The mourning of life that forces the demon to feed on the living in order to survive, the mourning of life that does not exist within the vampire itself.

Regret typically is replaced for the word "sorry", but as it also means to "mourn" or "miss" perhaps it's more that vampires are symbolic of the regret of loss of life. The mourning of life that forces the demon to feed on the living in order to survive, the mourning of life that does not exist within the vampire itself.

You may be right. I'm not a native speaker so the nuances are often lost on me.

Well apart from Spike & Angel (when in possession of those pesky souls) I have never seen a Buffy-verse vampire feel 'regret' that they're not alive. The general attitude seems to be 'Happy Meals on legs' and an overwhelming sense of superiority to their prey.

I think everyone needs to draw a line between being disappointed with the issue though (which is what I am) and then discussing it on a forum and the debate/hostility that comes from that environment.

I practically stopped visiting forums. When I read analysis and interpretations posted there I'm often surprised ~~by the amount of wank~~ how differently people see the story and how twisted their logic is.

I think I'm slowly but inevitably retreating back to fanficland... :)

I think I'm slowly but inevitably retreating back to fanficland... :)

Me too! I've been having far more fun writing and reading fanfic recently than I have discussing the comic issues. Wanna share a taxi to fanficland?

Wanna share a taxi to fanficland?

Gladly! I'm looking forward to the next chapter of "Thought You Should Know"!

I am increasingly happy and relieved that I've stopped reading! :)

You are the wisest! :)))) *smoochies*

I became paralysed with not caring...

And it occurs to me that the idea of feeding/sacrificing children to a demon was used to incredible (and extremely chilling and horrifying) effect in

treacle_a's Mortal Wounds. What I wouldn't give to see her finish that... *deeeeeeeeeep sigh* (Also, of course, it showed that The Immortal is a fascinatingly versatile character to play with!)

Yes, Mortal Wounds is powerful and creepy story. But there is a big difference between one sacrifice and a whole town of regular people sacrificing all their children to a demon. I just can't buy it.

Now, vampires personify regrets.

I believe the relevant phrase is "People still fall for that old Anne Rice routine?" If anything, Buffyverse vampires (generally speaking) are the antithesis of regret.

I'm curious if this new development was a one-issue plot necessity or a new trend.

I'm pretty sure it's the former. Or simply Krueger showing that he's not very familiar with canon.

How long could they do it until it fizzles out ot goes out of hand completely?

Unless it picks up soon, I'd say about 19 issues.

I believe the relevant phrase is "People still fall for that old Anne Rice routine?"

(http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v671/MoscowWatcher/Misc/?action=view&current=haha.gif) Mr. Krueger should be fed to Angelus and Spike!

Unless it picks up soon, I'd say about 19 issues.

Don't forget about the talks about season 9.

Don't forget about the talks about season 9.

I'm guessing that as far as Dark Horse are concerned, the issue is less whether the comic runs out of creative steam and more whether it continues to sell.

So far, #21 circulation was 69,980, according to Slayalive (http://slayaliveforums.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=buffyseason8&action=display&thread=3176&page=3) so the interest is still there, I think. Joss is carefully planning his guest stars - the next issue it's Oz, then he'll "invite" somebody else to sell his comics. Joss still has many options - Tara's resurrection, Spike's revelation, Angel's visit...

Cynical? Moi?

If anything, Buffyverse vampires (generally speaking) are the antithesis of regret.

Exactly! I can almost see the "hunger for life that's been damned to never be satisfied" part of it - James Marsters always talked about vampires as a metaphor for hunger, and he played Spike that way. But hunger is not the same thing as regret. Hunger is simply wanting something; regret is wishing you'd done something differently. Do vampires regret being turned? Rarely. Do they regret having to kill people in order to satisfy their hunger? Hardly. Not seeing the personification there.

Looks like the further into season 8 we go, the more we stray from the tired premise of vampires as pure evil. Now, vampires personify regrets. I'm curious if this new development was a one-issue plot necessity or a new trend.

I tend to think Spike and Angel would have a bone to pick with being considered creatures of regret prior to gaining their souls. Granted, pre-soul Spike showed remorse, but I think it would have been a stretch to call him the personification of regret.

I have the impression that this is the biggest problem with season 8. It's doomed to be either sensational or boring. There is no middle ground. To be compelling it has to be controversial.

Agree 100 percent. On the television series, even when an episode was kind of a stand-alone, it usually progressed the season's arc somewhat, or added a bit of depth to the characters. Like S5's "Triangle." It's a standard "Willow's magic goes awry" plotline, but we get the two main women in Xander's life coming to an agreement over boundaries, Buffy dealing with the Riley break-up, Spike trying to court Buffy, Giles coming back with news from the Watcher's Council...

Also, why did the vampires just hang out around the edges of the town? If I have to accept that the monster in town drives back the vampires because they're so regretful, why do I have to accept that dozens of vampires have nothing better to do but hang out and live on squirrels and rabbits, waiting for the monster to leave or die?

why do I have to accept that dozens of vampires have nothing better to do but hang out and live on squirrels and rabbits, waiting for the monster to leave or die?

I'm thinking about all those ditzy movie blondes who always run into a trap because if they don't the story falls apart. :)

Although I'm still very optimistic about the season as a whole, I really didn't like this issue.

I agree with you that the notion that vampires are regret personified is incoherent.

shadowkat67 wants to say that regret isn't remorse, but rather unfulfilled desire (or something like that). But I don't see how you can fit that with the fact that the demon apparently could chow down on Faith and Giles precisely because they do have regrets.

But it's not worth thinking about. I just don't believe Krueger has a handle on the verse, so I'm not going to spend time trying to look for deeper meanings here.

And not following up on Faith and Giles in any kind of interesting way? Criminal.

I like your idea about the metaphor on falling birthrates. But I rather doubt that Krueger was thinking about that. It's a very low visibility issue here in the states, and to the extent that people care about it, they are conservatives in the so-called culture wars.

Here's hoping that #24 is just an outlier.

And not following up on Faith and Giles in any kind of interesting way? Criminal.

*Nods*

Interestingly, so far, these two characters have been written only the writers who never wrote for the show. And, while Vaughan in NFFY did fine job and wrote a compex, conflicted Faith, and a multidimensional Giles, Krueger wrote them as generic demon-hunters.

I like your idea about the metaphor on falling birthrates. But I rather doubt that Krueger was thinking about that. It's a very low visibility issue here in the states, and to the extent that people care about it, they are conservatives in the so-called culture wars.

I see. It's a big issue in Russia, so I thought it could be relevant to other countries.

Here's hoping that #24 is just an outlier.

"So say we all..." :)

I see. It's a big issue in Russia, so I thought it could be relevant to other countries.

It will be eventually, I expect. There will either be a problem supporting retirees, or issues about the amount of immigration that will be needed to support the retirees. More in Europe, China, and Japan than in the states. But a bit here too. And it's always possible that the trends will just reverse at some point.

i think that season 8 buffy comics are destorying the original Buffyverse and the characters within are going completely out of character.

Everyone seems to turn out to be evil in some way and the characters are either fighting, hiding or they seem to be constantly betraying each other!

these comics are really depressing and are slowly destroying Buffy/Angel for me :(

these comics are really depressing and are slowly destroying Buffy/Angel for me :(

I try to regard comics as a separate canon and a separate universe. So far, comics haven't stopped my pleasure of reading and writing fanfiction and they never stand in the way of accepting a different turn of events in a fic.

But, I agree, sometimes comics are exasperating. :(

I haven't picked up the issue yet (I'm a trades guy) so take this comment as you will:

Because, as an evil ex-Watcher declares, "the vampire is regret personified. A hunger for life that's been damned to never be satisfied." That's why vampires eschew Hanselstadt.

It's entirely possible that the evil ex-watcher was full of it. Just because a character says something doesn't mean it's acurate--even if they're super-knowledgeable types.

It's entirely possible that the evil ex-watcher was full of it. Just because a character says something doesn't mean it's acurate--even if they're super-knowledgeable types.

I totally agree, but the plot is built on the idea that vampires really avoid Hanselstadt only because of the demon who feeds of regrets. As soon as Faith kills the monster, vampires, no longer restrained by his existence, attack the town, and Faith leads townsfolk into the fight.

The plot is also built on the vampires standing around on the outside of town, lurking more like zombies without brains than vampires who go where the feeding is good. The plot is just...bad. There is no conceivable reason for the vampires to act this way when they can just go to another town for some food.

I haven't read your review because I haven't read the issue yet. But I just wanted to wish you a Happy Birthday!

Thank you, honey!

*hugs*

A VERY Happy Birthday to you MW. Hope you have a WONDERFUL day!!!

Thank you! *hugs tight*

I wish you a wonderful birthday :)

Thank you, honey! *smoochies*

Happy birthday!!!

Thank you, honey! *hugs*

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Buffy #24 (kinda) review

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OT - H.B.

Re: OT - H.B.

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