Scott Allie Letter
Jun. 12th, 2008 12:59 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
moscow_watcherRecent kerkuffle at SlayAlive forums regarding Spike crossing over to BtVS in season 8 prompted me to write to Scott Allie. He replied quickly with thoughtful letter and gave me the permission to post it.
Previously on"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" SlayAlive forum:
June 8 Scott Allie posted at SlayAlive, replying to fans who accused him of disliking Spike and deliberately writing him out of comics back in 2001-2002. His post is here. In brief: he said that several technical problems kept DH from using Spike in later seasons and then wrote about "Spike having raped Buffy" - words, that, I have to admit, made me mad.
I posted a harsh reply: "Why can't you honestly admit you dislike the character, mr. Allie? Why do you hide behind Spike-hating letters in "Slay the critics" column?" I wasn't reading comics back in 2002 and my main concern was DH printing Spike-hating letters in season 8, like this one (I post it here only because it's relevant to our correspondence)
When I brought up this letter, the discussion on SlayAlive became heated. The next day Scott Allie posted another explanation - and I realised that my posts were harsh and uncalled for. So I wrote him
Dear Mr. Allie,
I am a member of SlayAlive forum, my fandom name is Moscow Watcher and I was one of the posters in the now-notorious discussion regarding your attitude to Spike.
I write to you personally because a) you declared that you won't return to SlayAlive and b) I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.
I want to apologize for being too harsh. When I posted that you hide behind hate letters it was a knee-jerk reaction of a fan who had been called a "rapist lover" many times in the past. And your words "Spike having raped Buffy" sounded to me like an official endorsement of another anti-Spike campaign.
Because you're not a fan and are able to evaluate characters objectively, I'm sure you agree with this: Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse.
But when you - one of the Powers That Be - single out Spike and start telling people off ("you wouldn't want that to happen to your sister?") to emphasise your point, it sounds like an official seal of your disapproval of the character.
I'm happy that you posted a disclaimer that you don't hate Spike, because Spike fans have been marginalized for a long time. But there are some details in your disclaimer that bother me.
You mention that you print almost every single letter you get. The problem is that I sent you a letter and many other Spike fans I know personally and online also sent letters and none of them were published. Could all of them be lost somewhere in cyberspace and only Spike-hating letters got through?
Anyway, I plan to send you a copy of this letter by snail-mail - hopefully it will end up in your hands.
Another statement that bothers me is that you "don't censor letters critical of the characters, because I don't need to protect the feelings of the characters."
But what about the feelings of your audience? By posting letters that attack fans' role models you hurt their feelings and challenge their beliefs.
I contribute to "Q&A" column of Russian movie magazine "Film" and rule #1 in our editorial office is to respect our readers and not to mock their role models no matter who they are. That's why I was so surprised at the selection of the letters you published, but maybe things are different in the world of comic books?
Anyway, I'm glad I was wrong about your motives.
I apologize again for being too harsh and I wish you all the best in your work.
Yours sincerely
And I've got his reply within hours:
Hi Lena,
I really never meant to single Spike out. That wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rather than me lashing out at Spike at random, I think everything I'd said was in response to specific points from readers, specific questions, and largely in reference to his relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's. You're right, none of the characters are innocent, especially Angel. He and Spike are both making amends for things they've done.
As for the letters I run—please note that we're still only on the letters responding to issue #6, I think. We're way behind, because we get so much mail every issue, and we do run almost all of it. The letters that don't get run are ones that I see as mean-spirited attacks on the creators—we get the occasional letter like that, and if I find it nasty, I don't use it. If it's just negative, without being nasty, I do use it. You know, it's possible that there were some letters responding to Shawler that attacked him. Maybe we didn't use those. I can see protecting the fans from each other in that way, but I don't remember. I could see us choosing not to use a letter that was nasty about Shawler, but I do think we ran letters arguing with him, in defense of Spike. I'm almost sure I have. In terms of negative mail, the most recent letter from Shawler himself was mostly about how bad the comic was, that #5 was the only one worth the money. I see one letter in my in box from you, about the Buffy tarot deck, from April. I don't see anything else from you. Your name's familiar enough that I feel like I HAVE run letters from you before, though.
"I don't censor letters critical of characters ..." You raise an interesting point, and the policy at Film makes a certain kind of sense—but if I censor readers' thoughts about the characters in the stories, what is there left to talk about? You can use the lettercol to debate those points. Otherwise, we'll be left with, "I love Joss, Jo's so great" ... I think your opinions about Joss's characters are exactly what the lettercol is for, and if that includes rants against characters, I think it's okay. If one of you attacks Spike, another can defend him—and again, I think that's happened. If one of you attacks Joss, or Georges, in a way I find harsh, none of us can respond in kind. Accusations about me hiding behind other people's letters, the weird maneuvering I was being accused of—I think someone said they hated the idea of me hanging out with Joss—what is that? All I can do is try to tell my side of it, but I can't engage in the same sort of personal criticisms, whether it's on the board or in the letter col. I guess if someone calls Shawler an idiot, he's free to reply that that person's an idiot, but that doesn't seem like a good use of the lettercol either.
I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?
Thanks for the letter. While I appreciate that one thread, I don't want to fuel the whole "I Support Scott Allie" thing anymore than you do—as though there was someone to support me against. I don't want that with Buffy fans, even if they've sworn off the book. The one thing we have in common is our love of these characters, so an online flame war is of no interest to me.
Scott
I asked Mr. Allie for a permission to post his letter and he gave it to me. So, here it is. I really, really hope that Spike won't be short-changed if PTB decide to make a crossover. I realise that my expectations may be too high because I'm spoiled by wonderful fanfiction I read all these years. There are days when I don't want to see Spike on BtVS because his reappearance will result in another wave of hate-mail similar to Shawler's rant.
Still, like![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kathyh said yesterday, watching a show without a favorite ship can be like watching a football tournament when your team has failed to qualify, you can appreciate and enjoy it but the passion isn't always there.
I'm going to send the link to this thread to Mr.Allie. Keep that in mind if\when you post comments and try to avoid harsh words.
Previously on
June 8 Scott Allie posted at SlayAlive, replying to fans who accused him of disliking Spike and deliberately writing him out of comics back in 2001-2002. His post is here. In brief: he said that several technical problems kept DH from using Spike in later seasons and then wrote about "Spike having raped Buffy" - words, that, I have to admit, made me mad.
I posted a harsh reply: "Why can't you honestly admit you dislike the character, mr. Allie? Why do you hide behind Spike-hating letters in "Slay the critics" column?" I wasn't reading comics back in 2002 and my main concern was DH printing Spike-hating letters in season 8, like this one (I post it here only because it's relevant to our correspondence)
When I brought up this letter, the discussion on SlayAlive became heated. The next day Scott Allie posted another explanation - and I realised that my posts were harsh and uncalled for. So I wrote him
Dear Mr. Allie,
I am a member of SlayAlive forum, my fandom name is Moscow Watcher and I was one of the posters in the now-notorious discussion regarding your attitude to Spike.
I write to you personally because a) you declared that you won't return to SlayAlive and b) I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.
I want to apologize for being too harsh. When I posted that you hide behind hate letters it was a knee-jerk reaction of a fan who had been called a "rapist lover" many times in the past. And your words "Spike having raped Buffy" sounded to me like an official endorsement of another anti-Spike campaign.
Because you're not a fan and are able to evaluate characters objectively, I'm sure you agree with this: Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse.
But when you - one of the Powers That Be - single out Spike and start telling people off ("you wouldn't want that to happen to your sister?") to emphasise your point, it sounds like an official seal of your disapproval of the character.
I'm happy that you posted a disclaimer that you don't hate Spike, because Spike fans have been marginalized for a long time. But there are some details in your disclaimer that bother me.
You mention that you print almost every single letter you get. The problem is that I sent you a letter and many other Spike fans I know personally and online also sent letters and none of them were published. Could all of them be lost somewhere in cyberspace and only Spike-hating letters got through?
Anyway, I plan to send you a copy of this letter by snail-mail - hopefully it will end up in your hands.
Another statement that bothers me is that you "don't censor letters critical of the characters, because I don't need to protect the feelings of the characters."
But what about the feelings of your audience? By posting letters that attack fans' role models you hurt their feelings and challenge their beliefs.
I contribute to "Q&A" column of Russian movie magazine "Film" and rule #1 in our editorial office is to respect our readers and not to mock their role models no matter who they are. That's why I was so surprised at the selection of the letters you published, but maybe things are different in the world of comic books?
Anyway, I'm glad I was wrong about your motives.
I apologize again for being too harsh and I wish you all the best in your work.
Yours sincerely
And I've got his reply within hours:
Hi Lena,
I really never meant to single Spike out. That wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rather than me lashing out at Spike at random, I think everything I'd said was in response to specific points from readers, specific questions, and largely in reference to his relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's. You're right, none of the characters are innocent, especially Angel. He and Spike are both making amends for things they've done.
As for the letters I run—please note that we're still only on the letters responding to issue #6, I think. We're way behind, because we get so much mail every issue, and we do run almost all of it. The letters that don't get run are ones that I see as mean-spirited attacks on the creators—we get the occasional letter like that, and if I find it nasty, I don't use it. If it's just negative, without being nasty, I do use it. You know, it's possible that there were some letters responding to Shawler that attacked him. Maybe we didn't use those. I can see protecting the fans from each other in that way, but I don't remember. I could see us choosing not to use a letter that was nasty about Shawler, but I do think we ran letters arguing with him, in defense of Spike. I'm almost sure I have. In terms of negative mail, the most recent letter from Shawler himself was mostly about how bad the comic was, that #5 was the only one worth the money. I see one letter in my in box from you, about the Buffy tarot deck, from April. I don't see anything else from you. Your name's familiar enough that I feel like I HAVE run letters from you before, though.
"I don't censor letters critical of characters ..." You raise an interesting point, and the policy at Film makes a certain kind of sense—but if I censor readers' thoughts about the characters in the stories, what is there left to talk about? You can use the lettercol to debate those points. Otherwise, we'll be left with, "I love Joss, Jo's so great" ... I think your opinions about Joss's characters are exactly what the lettercol is for, and if that includes rants against characters, I think it's okay. If one of you attacks Spike, another can defend him—and again, I think that's happened. If one of you attacks Joss, or Georges, in a way I find harsh, none of us can respond in kind. Accusations about me hiding behind other people's letters, the weird maneuvering I was being accused of—I think someone said they hated the idea of me hanging out with Joss—what is that? All I can do is try to tell my side of it, but I can't engage in the same sort of personal criticisms, whether it's on the board or in the letter col. I guess if someone calls Shawler an idiot, he's free to reply that that person's an idiot, but that doesn't seem like a good use of the lettercol either.
I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?
Thanks for the letter. While I appreciate that one thread, I don't want to fuel the whole "I Support Scott Allie" thing anymore than you do—as though there was someone to support me against. I don't want that with Buffy fans, even if they've sworn off the book. The one thing we have in common is our love of these characters, so an online flame war is of no interest to me.
Scott
I asked Mr. Allie for a permission to post his letter and he gave it to me. So, here it is. I really, really hope that Spike won't be short-changed if PTB decide to make a crossover. I realise that my expectations may be too high because I'm spoiled by wonderful fanfiction I read all these years. There are days when I don't want to see Spike on BtVS because his reappearance will result in another wave of hate-mail similar to Shawler's rant.
Still, like
kathyh said yesterday, watching a show without a favorite ship can be like watching a football tournament when your team has failed to qualify, you can appreciate and enjoy it but the passion isn't always there.I'm going to send the link to this thread to Mr.Allie. Keep that in mind if\when you post comments and try to avoid harsh words.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 12:14 am (UTC)Please forgive my wordiness but I am beside myself with this sort of thing. The character of Spike is deeply personal to me as I projected quite clearly on the character as I saw him (for point of reference: a good but average man who had something terrible happen to him. It caused a change in him that allowed him to make some terrible choices and embrace some terrible acts but a kernal of that good man always remained. Through the power of love and the timeliness of a chip that permitted him to associate with humans in a way other than as food caused him to seek a return to that good man.) I rooted for him to be loved as he so clearly yearned for and deserved. I cringed when he was belittled and cheered as he overcame even when the "good guys" did nothing to help him....in fact impeded his attempts to relearn humanity. How others comment about THIS Spike is very personal to me due to the projection.
Why did Mr. Allie's "rapist" Cr@p and his comment about a kid sister cause genuine emotional overload with me? Was it only because Spike was once more being dismissed? Nope....because I AM that kid sister and that character helped me deal with the fall out of exactly that issue that Mr. Allie seems to think I am a pervert to forgive Spike for! I was molested as a child and later raped as a teen. Like my projected view of Spike my whole self changed because of those events and I did some bad things and hurt many people for a long time before I got my act together.
Imagine how it feels, Mr. Allie, to have the epiphany I achieved through this character (in feeling he deserved to be loved and forgiven, I gave the same permission to myself....more effective than the therapy)twisted and made into something sick?
As for the "rape"....I've had it done to me and been in group at the crisis center and heard the others stories....other "kid sisters"....what happened on that episode was not rape. It was not attempted rape. It was a royal screw up that BOTH parties had reason to rue and seek forgiveness for allowing (unlike some of Buffy's actions that Spike stood blameless for like the alley beat down that was never even apologized for).
Now as to the non personal thoughts on the whole viability of the "love story" of one pairing over the other....I contend that the actions of both vampires should be judged fairly. Those actions that took place with no souls vs. with souls. That being the case Spike's "attempted rape" and pretty much every other "evil" action was without a soul. Angelus (the unsouled counterpart) not only tried to kill Buffy but intended to play a mind game with her just as he had played with Dru before killing her. How is that less evil than Spike not getting that this time she really did mean no? If we forgive the actions of Angelus because he was without soul then all Spike's unsouled actions don't count either. We are then left with two possible relationships that one can root for or against based on how we perceive them to be as viable and lasting adult relationships.
Personally I think it would be Spike because the two of them truly knew each other whereas Angel and Buffy had a view of the other that was not true or realistic. I doubt they would have survived together without really tearing each other apart over their faults. This is my opinion. Mr. Allie is entitled to think otherwise but to base so much on Spike being evil as opposed to Angel not being so is insulting to the three dimensional characters all round.
(will finish in further post)
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 12:14 am (UTC)Reading the letters printed that are so hate filled about Spike turned me off early too. Mr. Allie may not be making story decisions but his attitude has been severly off putting. His comments were personally painful to me. I survived and overcame REAL rape and to be classed as perverted or worse and admonished that (to paraphrase) if I had a kid sister who had been attacked I wouldn't see the romance I find hurtful and insulting. Yes this has bothered me terribly because unlike just hurtful comments by just another fan it is someone steering the "future" of characters I have come to love dearly.
Thanks Lena for contacting him with your articulate letter and thank you for allowing me to take up space on your LJ with my long winded comments.
Kathleen
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-13 11:22 am (UTC)I feel a bit infamous myself for being the one who started the "I Support Scott Allie" thread (angearia aka Emmie from SlayAlive), but I just wanted to respond since you mentioned us in your letter to Scott.
I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.
One member did call Spike a "rapist-killing vampire", but that post was immediately followed by other members in defense of Spike and his path to redemption. The belief that Spike is a rapist-murderer was not the point of the "I Support Scott Allie" thread, but rather people wishing to show they respect the integrity of Scott's position and his professionalism. This support is not a specific endorsement of his opinions about the characters, but that he has the right to his opinion and the belief that his professionalism keeps him from abusing the character's development. Whatever that opinion may be. Sadly, it appears this message was not made clear enough in the thread.
I think your writing to Scott Allie directly was the best possible way to approach this situation. From the horse's mouth. And that is really what I found upsetting with the "infamous thread" - that some unflattering and insulting personal speculation was taking place without any real evidence. And it had an unfortunate negative spiral that was unattractive on both sides of the argument.
I don't mean to steal your thunder, but I do want to reach out to say that I hope the "Support" thread isn't seen or interpreted as a divisive fandom agent - I didn't intend it as such, but rather a positive show of support and respect. I wish you the best and I hope you will still visit SlayAlive.
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2008-06-14 10:55 am (UTC)This is why I subscribe to this lj. I get the summary recap of the comics, fic recs, and a good overview of the current controversies discussed by thoughtful, rational people. This particular post in itself and its subsequent comments is just one more proof that this fandom has plenty of people whose opinions I respect. Lena, I would gladly have you proxy my vote on any fan issue for me, because I have no doubt you'd take the time to understand the situation so thoroughly that your endorsement would be enough. You available to do the same for the US Presidential election? I've already got a headache (hence the retreat to fandom . . .)
(no subject)
From:(no subject)
Date: 2008-07-12 02:00 pm (UTC)BTW lovely name
*hugs*
(no subject)
From:Hi I'm new here
Date: 2008-08-02 11:39 am (UTC)Just wanted to say
Date: 2008-08-03 08:29 am (UTC)Brilliant page!
Date: 2008-09-23 09:52 pm (UTC)thanks much
Date: 2008-09-28 05:19 pm (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2008-10-03 09:30 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:Cool page!
Date: 2008-10-06 10:28 pm (UTC)