moscow_watcher (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
moscow_watcher) wrote2008-06-12 12:59 pm
moscow_watcher) wrote2008-06-12 12:59 pm
Entry tags:
Scott Allie Letter
Recent kerkuffle at SlayAlive forums regarding Spike crossing over to BtVS in season 8 prompted me to write to Scott Allie. He replied quickly with thoughtful letter and gave me the permission to post it.
Previously on"Buffy the Vampire Slayer" SlayAlive forum:
June 8 Scott Allie posted at SlayAlive, replying to fans who accused him of disliking Spike and deliberately writing him out of comics back in 2001-2002. His post is here. In brief: he said that several technical problems kept DH from using Spike in later seasons and then wrote about "Spike having raped Buffy" - words, that, I have to admit, made me mad.
I posted a harsh reply: "Why can't you honestly admit you dislike the character, mr. Allie? Why do you hide behind Spike-hating letters in "Slay the critics" column?" I wasn't reading comics back in 2002 and my main concern was DH printing Spike-hating letters in season 8, like this one (I post it here only because it's relevant to our correspondence)
When I brought up this letter, the discussion on SlayAlive became heated. The next day Scott Allie posted another explanation - and I realised that my posts were harsh and uncalled for. So I wrote him
Dear Mr. Allie,
I am a member of SlayAlive forum, my fandom name is Moscow Watcher and I was one of the posters in the now-notorious discussion regarding your attitude to Spike.
I write to you personally because a) you declared that you won't return to SlayAlive and b) I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.
I want to apologize for being too harsh. When I posted that you hide behind hate letters it was a knee-jerk reaction of a fan who had been called a "rapist lover" many times in the past. And your words "Spike having raped Buffy" sounded to me like an official endorsement of another anti-Spike campaign.
Because you're not a fan and are able to evaluate characters objectively, I'm sure you agree with this: Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse.
But when you - one of the Powers That Be - single out Spike and start telling people off ("you wouldn't want that to happen to your sister?") to emphasise your point, it sounds like an official seal of your disapproval of the character.
I'm happy that you posted a disclaimer that you don't hate Spike, because Spike fans have been marginalized for a long time. But there are some details in your disclaimer that bother me.
You mention that you print almost every single letter you get. The problem is that I sent you a letter and many other Spike fans I know personally and online also sent letters and none of them were published. Could all of them be lost somewhere in cyberspace and only Spike-hating letters got through?
Anyway, I plan to send you a copy of this letter by snail-mail - hopefully it will end up in your hands.
Another statement that bothers me is that you "don't censor letters critical of the characters, because I don't need to protect the feelings of the characters."
But what about the feelings of your audience? By posting letters that attack fans' role models you hurt their feelings and challenge their beliefs.
I contribute to "Q&A" column of Russian movie magazine "Film" and rule #1 in our editorial office is to respect our readers and not to mock their role models no matter who they are. That's why I was so surprised at the selection of the letters you published, but maybe things are different in the world of comic books?
Anyway, I'm glad I was wrong about your motives.
I apologize again for being too harsh and I wish you all the best in your work.
Yours sincerely
And I've got his reply within hours:
Hi Lena,
I really never meant to single Spike out. That wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rather than me lashing out at Spike at random, I think everything I'd said was in response to specific points from readers, specific questions, and largely in reference to his relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's. You're right, none of the characters are innocent, especially Angel. He and Spike are both making amends for things they've done.
As for the letters I run—please note that we're still only on the letters responding to issue #6, I think. We're way behind, because we get so much mail every issue, and we do run almost all of it. The letters that don't get run are ones that I see as mean-spirited attacks on the creators—we get the occasional letter like that, and if I find it nasty, I don't use it. If it's just negative, without being nasty, I do use it. You know, it's possible that there were some letters responding to Shawler that attacked him. Maybe we didn't use those. I can see protecting the fans from each other in that way, but I don't remember. I could see us choosing not to use a letter that was nasty about Shawler, but I do think we ran letters arguing with him, in defense of Spike. I'm almost sure I have. In terms of negative mail, the most recent letter from Shawler himself was mostly about how bad the comic was, that #5 was the only one worth the money. I see one letter in my in box from you, about the Buffy tarot deck, from April. I don't see anything else from you. Your name's familiar enough that I feel like I HAVE run letters from you before, though.
"I don't censor letters critical of characters ..." You raise an interesting point, and the policy at Film makes a certain kind of sense—but if I censor readers' thoughts about the characters in the stories, what is there left to talk about? You can use the lettercol to debate those points. Otherwise, we'll be left with, "I love Joss, Jo's so great" ... I think your opinions about Joss's characters are exactly what the lettercol is for, and if that includes rants against characters, I think it's okay. If one of you attacks Spike, another can defend him—and again, I think that's happened. If one of you attacks Joss, or Georges, in a way I find harsh, none of us can respond in kind. Accusations about me hiding behind other people's letters, the weird maneuvering I was being accused of—I think someone said they hated the idea of me hanging out with Joss—what is that? All I can do is try to tell my side of it, but I can't engage in the same sort of personal criticisms, whether it's on the board or in the letter col. I guess if someone calls Shawler an idiot, he's free to reply that that person's an idiot, but that doesn't seem like a good use of the lettercol either.
I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?
Thanks for the letter. While I appreciate that one thread, I don't want to fuel the whole "I Support Scott Allie" thing anymore than you do—as though there was someone to support me against. I don't want that with Buffy fans, even if they've sworn off the book. The one thing we have in common is our love of these characters, so an online flame war is of no interest to me.
Scott
I asked Mr. Allie for a permission to post his letter and he gave it to me. So, here it is. I really, really hope that Spike won't be short-changed if PTB decide to make a crossover. I realise that my expectations may be too high because I'm spoiled by wonderful fanfiction I read all these years. There are days when I don't want to see Spike on BtVS because his reappearance will result in another wave of hate-mail similar to Shawler's rant.
Still, like![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kathyh said yesterday, watching a show without a favorite ship can be like watching a football tournament when your team has failed to qualify, you can appreciate and enjoy it but the passion isn't always there.
I'm going to send the link to this thread to Mr.Allie. Keep that in mind if\when you post comments and try to avoid harsh words.
Previously on
June 8 Scott Allie posted at SlayAlive, replying to fans who accused him of disliking Spike and deliberately writing him out of comics back in 2001-2002. His post is here. In brief: he said that several technical problems kept DH from using Spike in later seasons and then wrote about "Spike having raped Buffy" - words, that, I have to admit, made me mad.
I posted a harsh reply: "Why can't you honestly admit you dislike the character, mr. Allie? Why do you hide behind Spike-hating letters in "Slay the critics" column?" I wasn't reading comics back in 2002 and my main concern was DH printing Spike-hating letters in season 8, like this one (I post it here only because it's relevant to our correspondence)
When I brought up this letter, the discussion on SlayAlive became heated. The next day Scott Allie posted another explanation - and I realised that my posts were harsh and uncalled for. So I wrote him
Dear Mr. Allie,
I am a member of SlayAlive forum, my fandom name is Moscow Watcher and I was one of the posters in the now-notorious discussion regarding your attitude to Spike.
I write to you personally because a) you declared that you won't return to SlayAlive and b) I don't want to give ammunition to forum members who declared themselves your supporters and who now defend your position by calling Spike rapist and murderer.
I want to apologize for being too harsh. When I posted that you hide behind hate letters it was a knee-jerk reaction of a fan who had been called a "rapist lover" many times in the past. And your words "Spike having raped Buffy" sounded to me like an official endorsement of another anti-Spike campaign.
Because you're not a fan and are able to evaluate characters objectively, I'm sure you agree with this: Spike tried to rape Buffy. Xander tried to rape Buffy (The Pack). Angel killed her teacher and tortured Giles. Giles killed a human. Willow tried to end the world. Nobody is innocent in Jossverse.
But when you - one of the Powers That Be - single out Spike and start telling people off ("you wouldn't want that to happen to your sister?") to emphasise your point, it sounds like an official seal of your disapproval of the character.
I'm happy that you posted a disclaimer that you don't hate Spike, because Spike fans have been marginalized for a long time. But there are some details in your disclaimer that bother me.
You mention that you print almost every single letter you get. The problem is that I sent you a letter and many other Spike fans I know personally and online also sent letters and none of them were published. Could all of them be lost somewhere in cyberspace and only Spike-hating letters got through?
Anyway, I plan to send you a copy of this letter by snail-mail - hopefully it will end up in your hands.
Another statement that bothers me is that you "don't censor letters critical of the characters, because I don't need to protect the feelings of the characters."
But what about the feelings of your audience? By posting letters that attack fans' role models you hurt their feelings and challenge their beliefs.
I contribute to "Q&A" column of Russian movie magazine "Film" and rule #1 in our editorial office is to respect our readers and not to mock their role models no matter who they are. That's why I was so surprised at the selection of the letters you published, but maybe things are different in the world of comic books?
Anyway, I'm glad I was wrong about your motives.
I apologize again for being too harsh and I wish you all the best in your work.
Yours sincerely
And I've got his reply within hours:
Hi Lena,
I really never meant to single Spike out. That wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. Rather than me lashing out at Spike at random, I think everything I'd said was in response to specific points from readers, specific questions, and largely in reference to his relationship with Buffy as compared to Angel's. You're right, none of the characters are innocent, especially Angel. He and Spike are both making amends for things they've done.
As for the letters I run—please note that we're still only on the letters responding to issue #6, I think. We're way behind, because we get so much mail every issue, and we do run almost all of it. The letters that don't get run are ones that I see as mean-spirited attacks on the creators—we get the occasional letter like that, and if I find it nasty, I don't use it. If it's just negative, without being nasty, I do use it. You know, it's possible that there were some letters responding to Shawler that attacked him. Maybe we didn't use those. I can see protecting the fans from each other in that way, but I don't remember. I could see us choosing not to use a letter that was nasty about Shawler, but I do think we ran letters arguing with him, in defense of Spike. I'm almost sure I have. In terms of negative mail, the most recent letter from Shawler himself was mostly about how bad the comic was, that #5 was the only one worth the money. I see one letter in my in box from you, about the Buffy tarot deck, from April. I don't see anything else from you. Your name's familiar enough that I feel like I HAVE run letters from you before, though.
"I don't censor letters critical of characters ..." You raise an interesting point, and the policy at Film makes a certain kind of sense—but if I censor readers' thoughts about the characters in the stories, what is there left to talk about? You can use the lettercol to debate those points. Otherwise, we'll be left with, "I love Joss, Jo's so great" ... I think your opinions about Joss's characters are exactly what the lettercol is for, and if that includes rants against characters, I think it's okay. If one of you attacks Spike, another can defend him—and again, I think that's happened. If one of you attacks Joss, or Georges, in a way I find harsh, none of us can respond in kind. Accusations about me hiding behind other people's letters, the weird maneuvering I was being accused of—I think someone said they hated the idea of me hanging out with Joss—what is that? All I can do is try to tell my side of it, but I can't engage in the same sort of personal criticisms, whether it's on the board or in the letter col. I guess if someone calls Shawler an idiot, he's free to reply that that person's an idiot, but that doesn't seem like a good use of the lettercol either.
I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed. People responding to my posts have picked and chosen what to believe—they believe what confirms their suspicions, ignore what doesn't, and continue to ascribe weird motives to the fictional version of how I do my job. Setting stories pre-Season One just to get Spike out of the book? You've got to admit that's a bizarre leap for someone to have made, right?
Thanks for the letter. While I appreciate that one thread, I don't want to fuel the whole "I Support Scott Allie" thing anymore than you do—as though there was someone to support me against. I don't want that with Buffy fans, even if they've sworn off the book. The one thing we have in common is our love of these characters, so an online flame war is of no interest to me.
Scott
I asked Mr. Allie for a permission to post his letter and he gave it to me. So, here it is. I really, really hope that Spike won't be short-changed if PTB decide to make a crossover. I realise that my expectations may be too high because I'm spoiled by wonderful fanfiction I read all these years. There are days when I don't want to see Spike on BtVS because his reappearance will result in another wave of hate-mail similar to Shawler's rant.
Still, like
kathyh said yesterday, watching a show without a favorite ship can be like watching a football tournament when your team has failed to qualify, you can appreciate and enjoy it but the passion isn't always there.I'm going to send the link to this thread to Mr.Allie. Keep that in mind if\when you post comments and try to avoid harsh words.
no subject
I'm genuinely sorry about the stir I've inadvertently caused, but it's primarily the result of a lot of things I've said or done being taken out of context, being liberally interpreted, with motives applied to me that never existed.
Apparently, he still doesn't get it. It was this comment, in his own words - not taken out of context, that upset me (and I'm sure the majority of pro-Spike people who tried to engage him in dialogue on the thread):
The comments I've made about Spike having raped Buffy—and I'm happy to have anyone argue that with me—were made in response to the question of Buffy + Angel or Buffy + Spike. Yes, it is my opinion that Angel is her true love, and that every relationship that followed, including Spike—and Satsu, and Riley—pale in comparison to her love of Angel. This is a matter of opinion. I know some fans agree; I know some feel the opposite. The fact that Spike did what he did to her on that bathroom floor, to me, reflects on his love of her. If your sister met with that treatment at the hands of her boyfriend, would you judge? I think you would.
There is a big difference between an attempted action and a completed action. Spike attempted to engage in the type of sexcapades they hade been having for months, during which time, Buffy repeatedly said 'No", when she actually meant "Convince me". When SOULLESS Spike realized that this time, she really meant "No", he immediately stopped and felt shame and guilt - rather unprecedented for an unsouled vampire, wouldn't you think? Mr. Allie's throw-away line discussing "comments I've made about Spike having raped Buffy", were the words - and the attitude which those words implied - that infuriated fans.
The fact that Spike did what he did to her on that bathroom floor, to me, reflects on his love of her. Yes, Mr. Allie, it certainly does reflect on his love for her. The fact that Spike did what her did - when he realized she meant "No", he stopped. He stopped and left in shame, and went to earn back his soul to be the kind of man who would never inadvertently do that again, because he realized that he made a mistake and he didn't currently possess the moral compass he hoped his soul would give him. To go through all that - he must really have loved her, right, Mr. Allie?
no subject
I'm afraid the problem partly lies in the medium of comics. No matter how writers try to make the story complex and characters motivations ambiguous comics can't compare with TV show. Simplification is inevitable. Besides, now they have to service different type of fans - those who love uncomplicated stories.
The more I read the less I want Spike to cross over to Buffy.
no subject
potentialsslayers murking things up, I rarely recognized Buffy in the mix, as she was drawn differently in each pannel, (as were each of the other characters.) Thank goodness Xander has an eyepatch and Giles has glasses and Willow wears Rennaissance Faire dresses and flies, or I'd really be lost! This is a problem in the type of story they are attempting to tell. So, my lack of appreciation for Jeanty's art may be a factor. But the story itself doesn't seem to be really interesting, either. So, I'm with you in that I'm not anxious to have Spike show up.no subject
That's my impression as well. I read them and wondered if Joss has lost his creative streak. Then I read the script of Dollhouse pilot and it was a feast. Gripping story, well-defined characters, intriguing twists - I was totally captivated. Then again, maybe I enjoyed it so much because it was a text. I read it and I could mentally "see" what I read. And the pictures in my brain moved and talked, I could "hear" Eliza's voice with her typical inflections, I could "see" Tahmoh's reactions, I could easily project my own vision on the words on the page. But I can't make comics panels "move" no matter how hard I try. Maybe it's because I don't have any previous experience in comics.
my lack of appreciation for Jeanty's art may be a factor.
*sigh*
If only Jo Chen could do all the panels...
no subject
And it's such a crying shame, because apparently his X-Men comics are great. 'After the Fall' (which is of course written by Brian Lynch, but with plenty of input from Joss) is (almost, something obviously gets lots in the medium transfer) as multi-layered and fascinating as the show. I wasn't expecting s8 to be great - but I *was* expecting more than crack!fic.
no subject
And I have recently been thinking that maybe the fault isn't completely with me, and my lack of ability to follow the storyline without
no subject
*applauds you*
no subject
Thank you. It seems like you were watching the same show I was. Apparently, Mr. Allie was watching a different show.
no subject
That was beautifully said.
The fact that some people see only the attack on Buffy, and not how it was just another (far more horrible, but logical) step in a relationship laced with S&M puzzles me. For heaven's sake, Buffy only initiated sexual relations with Spike after he regained his ability to hurt her! The foreplay for their first time was a fistfight! It was not, in any way, shape, or form, an ordinary relationship. And after Spike attacked her--after realization set in--he took steps to ensure he'd never do something like again, by earning a soul. Not being cursed with one because he was so unrepentently evil. Seeking one, because he wanted to be better.
Wanting to be good even when he was soulless? Spike really was unique in that regard.
no subject
Yes, he was. And, that's why I just don't understand the "Angel is Buffy's true love and they should be together forever" mindset. I've tried, and I just don't get it. It's not just a matter of personal preference for one guy over the other. It's the characters themselves. Buffy and Angel have grown so far apart, they really have nothing in common any longer, if they ever did. The things Angel experienced in LA have made him a completely different
personvampire than the one Buffy "knew" in Sunnydale. She couldn't even understand why Angel wanted to help Faith. And, even if they got together in the future, there would always be the problem of his non-anchored soul (which can be removed by magical means, as shown in S4). Soulless Angel has absolutely NO desire to be souled. Period. He would never fight for his soul; that's been shown over and over again in canon. Spike, on the other hand, has the potential to really be Buffy's equal. It just seems like a no-brainer to me. Really, isn't that why people became Spuffy shippers in the first place?