This may take more than one post...sorry... Please forgive my wordiness but I am beside myself with this sort of thing. The character of Spike is deeply personal to me as I projected quite clearly on the character as I saw him (for point of reference: a good but average man who had something terrible happen to him. It caused a change in him that allowed him to make some terrible choices and embrace some terrible acts but a kernal of that good man always remained. Through the power of love and the timeliness of a chip that permitted him to associate with humans in a way other than as food caused him to seek a return to that good man.) I rooted for him to be loved as he so clearly yearned for and deserved. I cringed when he was belittled and cheered as he overcame even when the "good guys" did nothing to help him....in fact impeded his attempts to relearn humanity. How others comment about THIS Spike is very personal to me due to the projection.
Why did Mr. Allie's "rapist" Cr@p and his comment about a kid sister cause genuine emotional overload with me? Was it only because Spike was once more being dismissed? Nope....because I AM that kid sister and that character helped me deal with the fall out of exactly that issue that Mr. Allie seems to think I am a pervert to forgive Spike for! I was molested as a child and later raped as a teen. Like my projected view of Spike my whole self changed because of those events and I did some bad things and hurt many people for a long time before I got my act together.
Imagine how it feels, Mr. Allie, to have the epiphany I achieved through this character (in feeling he deserved to be loved and forgiven, I gave the same permission to myself....more effective than the therapy)twisted and made into something sick?
As for the "rape"....I've had it done to me and been in group at the crisis center and heard the others stories....other "kid sisters"....what happened on that episode was not rape. It was not attempted rape. It was a royal screw up that BOTH parties had reason to rue and seek forgiveness for allowing (unlike some of Buffy's actions that Spike stood blameless for like the alley beat down that was never even apologized for).
Now as to the non personal thoughts on the whole viability of the "love story" of one pairing over the other....I contend that the actions of both vampires should be judged fairly. Those actions that took place with no souls vs. with souls. That being the case Spike's "attempted rape" and pretty much every other "evil" action was without a soul. Angelus (the unsouled counterpart) not only tried to kill Buffy but intended to play a mind game with her just as he had played with Dru before killing her. How is that less evil than Spike not getting that this time she really did mean no? If we forgive the actions of Angelus because he was without soul then all Spike's unsouled actions don't count either. We are then left with two possible relationships that one can root for or against based on how we perceive them to be as viable and lasting adult relationships.
Personally I think it would be Spike because the two of them truly knew each other whereas Angel and Buffy had a view of the other that was not true or realistic. I doubt they would have survived together without really tearing each other apart over their faults. This is my opinion. Mr. Allie is entitled to think otherwise but to base so much on Spike being evil as opposed to Angel not being so is insulting to the three dimensional characters all round.
no subject
Please forgive my wordiness but I am beside myself with this sort of thing. The character of Spike is deeply personal to me as I projected quite clearly on the character as I saw him (for point of reference: a good but average man who had something terrible happen to him. It caused a change in him that allowed him to make some terrible choices and embrace some terrible acts but a kernal of that good man always remained. Through the power of love and the timeliness of a chip that permitted him to associate with humans in a way other than as food caused him to seek a return to that good man.) I rooted for him to be loved as he so clearly yearned for and deserved. I cringed when he was belittled and cheered as he overcame even when the "good guys" did nothing to help him....in fact impeded his attempts to relearn humanity. How others comment about THIS Spike is very personal to me due to the projection.
Why did Mr. Allie's "rapist" Cr@p and his comment about a kid sister cause genuine emotional overload with me? Was it only because Spike was once more being dismissed? Nope....because I AM that kid sister and that character helped me deal with the fall out of exactly that issue that Mr. Allie seems to think I am a pervert to forgive Spike for! I was molested as a child and later raped as a teen. Like my projected view of Spike my whole self changed because of those events and I did some bad things and hurt many people for a long time before I got my act together.
Imagine how it feels, Mr. Allie, to have the epiphany I achieved through this character (in feeling he deserved to be loved and forgiven, I gave the same permission to myself....more effective than the therapy)twisted and made into something sick?
As for the "rape"....I've had it done to me and been in group at the crisis center and heard the others stories....other "kid sisters"....what happened on that episode was not rape. It was not attempted rape. It was a royal screw up that BOTH parties had reason to rue and seek forgiveness for allowing (unlike some of Buffy's actions that Spike stood blameless for like the alley beat down that was never even apologized for).
Now as to the non personal thoughts on the whole viability of the "love story" of one pairing over the other....I contend that the actions of both vampires should be judged fairly. Those actions that took place with no souls vs. with souls. That being the case Spike's "attempted rape" and pretty much every other "evil" action was without a soul. Angelus (the unsouled counterpart) not only tried to kill Buffy but intended to play a mind game with her just as he had played with Dru before killing her. How is that less evil than Spike not getting that this time she really did mean no? If we forgive the actions of Angelus because he was without soul then all Spike's unsouled actions don't count either. We are then left with two possible relationships that one can root for or against based on how we perceive them to be as viable and lasting adult relationships.
Personally I think it would be Spike because the two of them truly knew each other whereas Angel and Buffy had a view of the other that was not true or realistic. I doubt they would have survived together without really tearing each other apart over their faults. This is my opinion. Mr. Allie is entitled to think otherwise but to base so much on Spike being evil as opposed to Angel not being so is insulting to the three dimensional characters all round.
(will finish in further post)