moscow_watcher | (no subject)

(no subject)

Two weeks ago a BNA reposted her old Spike-bashing fic from FF.net on her LJ. Surprisingly, it hurt me and it still hurts. Two weeks has passed and I can't forget about this occurrence. I'm writing this post because I can't get it out of my mind. Hopefully I'll feel better when I put my frustrations into words. Grr.

You may stop here or read the whole rant.

It's weird to see such intense hate more than three years after the ending of the show.

Interestingly, this BNA is a professional writer. There is an adage in Russia that writers are engineers of the souls. I suppose this particular BNA realises how painful for Spike fans is the fic in which souled Spike deliberately leaves Scoobies to die in the Hellmouth; in which souled Spike consistently makes Buffy's life miserable; in which Buffy is unrelentless in her Spike-hate. But the BNA deems appropriate to remind about her dislike of Spike today, when the shows are long over.

I'm trying to understand why it hurts so much. I consider myself a thick-skinned fan. I've been called a rapist-lover and just shrugged it off as people's inability to keep civil discussions. But it was back then, when the show was on air. Now it's over. Long ago. Why the hate is still alive and kicking?

Wait. I think I got it. At least partially. Often frustrations trigger people's creativity and make them write. It's frustrations that make me write this post. Could it be frustrations that make this particular BNA write? Could it be hate that fuels her passion for Jossverse? May she write her fics to exorcize her frustrations like I write his post to exorcise my frustrations?

But the problem is that it isn't a new fic. It was written in 2003. And it wasn't reposted on LJ for archiving purposes - the writer could archive it on her site. Did she do it just to make Spike fans squirm? Or could reposting of an old text and seeing it in a new environment also work as an act of creation?

Hopefully, yes. Hopefully, revisiting the old fic will help this BNA to exorcise her Spike-hate.

OK. Deep breath.

Am I subjective? I think I am. Are there other characters-bashing fics online? Sure. Then am I a hypocrite who applies double-standards to "her" hero and other characters? Tricky question.

I know I can't be objective when it comes to Spike but I remember reading fics in which other characters were portrayed in a negative light and, while not approving bashing, I usually look at these scenes with "yeah, whatever" attitude. Surely fans who are neither Spike-haters nor attached to Spike read this Spike-bashing fic with the same "yeah, whatever" rolleye.

So - I know I have no right to critisize. Spike still gets strong reaction from both fans and antis. At least I can't remember any other old other-character-bashing-fics freshly reposted online. And I won't disclose BNA's name.

OK. I learned the lesson. To avoid fics written by ficwriters who are passionate about other heroes, unless the fics are recommended by fans I know. Because passion and hate often go hand in hand.

Now I wonder if I'll be able to get rid of negative emotions when I post this rant online. If not, I'll write part deux. (Just kidding)

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I saw the fic you're talking about, and apart from the fact I didn't think it was all that well written, found it a rather odd, abet callous tale that left a rather bad taste in my mouth, but then I suppose as a Spike fan I would wouldn't I.

Folks like that want to rile certain fans up, but I think the best way is to try and put it to the back of your mind and forget it.

That story is more then forgetable for a start!

the best way is to try and put it to the back of your mind and forget it

I tried. My problem was that I couldn't forget. I couldn't stop thinking about fandom, about different perceptions of the same character. It would have been so easy to make Spike soulless in this fic - but it was writer's whole point to portray souled Spike as a very bad person.

I wonder if Spike-bashers squirm when\if they read Spuffy fics with noble and nice soulless Spike (hopefully they don't read it). :)

I just hope that putting my thoughts into words will somehow help me to get rid of them and forget it.

(BTW, adore your icon. You put me in a certain mood, but the only slashy pic I have is a very subtextual Spander. Hope you don't mind... :)

For myself, the best approach is to realize that these things don't really matter. The people who will read (and "enjoy") this fic, felt this way beforehand. You're right. It was actually penned to upset Spike fans. Therefore, my best response is to shrug and say it doesn't matter. As it's not the response that the writer is looking for, it probably upsets them.

At any rate, I understand why it irks you. It is irksome. Just realize that they look ridiculous and like a very poor fanfic writer.

I suppose it would be indiscreet to ask for the title of the fic? I'm very fond of Spike and write him a lot, but now I'm curious.

The best thing to do is ignore it. If the fiction was written with the purpose of upsetting Spike fans, the best thing we can do is to avoid it. There are a good amount of Buffy fans who are die hard Spike haters, if that fiction is their cup of tea let them be happy with it. Thankfully, there are also great Spike writers in the community, lets focus on them.

the best approach is to realize that these things don't really matter

Hope you're right. I just thought the whole hate thing was over. Especially in ficwriting circles. I assumed people who haven't left the fandom have mellowed and left hate in the past.

Recently I realised that I love all characters - Buffy and her friends, Angel and his Fang Gang, Firefly crew. I miss them. You know, I watched the last episode of Lost and literally squeed when I saw Nathan Fillion. And I've never been a diehard Firefly fan, although I enjoyed it a lot. Seeing NF was so poignant - it was a reminder of glory days, of spoiler whoring and belief in the bright future of Jossverse. So I assumed that everybody felt like that.

Hopefully time will come. :)

there are also great Spike writers in the community, lets focus on them

Recently I found that I'm eager to read fics about other characters so I'm trying to explore other areas of fandom. Usually it's a positive experience but when I discover a bashing fic I withdraw into my Spuffy corner not sure if I should try again to broaden my horizons. :)

I'm uncomfortable with mentioning the actual name here, but if it's important for you and you want to read the fic in question, send me email (I have it in my profile) and I'll send you the link in my reply.

I know how you feel

I can't stand character bashing, I'm a hige Spike fan but just stopped readinga fic whic turned into a " let's bash Angel and Buffy" fest

I hate it when someone does that to my favourite character and consider it horribly out of character when Buffy is turned into Queen Bitch or Angel into a weak bully or whatever

Good writers don't need to take another character down in order to build their favourite character up

I don't get cross I just stop reading and mark that author down as one to avoid in future

Good writers don't need to take another character down in order to build their favourite character up

Funnily, it wasn't about building writer's favorite character up. The only character Spike interacts with in this fic is permanently depressed Buffy who can't be happy after her friends were gone (because Spike has left them die in the Hellmouth). Buffy can't stop thinking about them while her Slayer duties alternate with seldom one-night stands. Meanwhile Willow and Xander are stuck in a "Langoliers"-type dimension (a replica of our universe but sans people). Then Buffy gets a phone call from Giles who tells her that Connor's trip from Quor-toth ripped open the fabric of reality and thinned the dimensional walls.

At this point I decided that this is the reason of such radical interpretation of the character of Spike: the writer weaves an intricate plot and needs souled Spike as a bad guy because sans soul Spike can't be granted the membership of the Council and the writer wants him there to make him more effective "secret" enemy of Buffy.

My spoiler whore's imagination immediately created a scenario: Buffy tries to reach her friends, Willow and Xander somehow figure out her intentions and try to reach her from their side, evil!Spike concocts some nefarious plan to destroy their reunion...

And I was wrong. The next time we meet Buffy she unexplicably works together with Spike on some demon case unrelated to thinning dimensional walls. She continues to hate Spike. She repeats to Spike how much she dislikes him and tells that his apologies are just noise. She reminds him about his evil deeds, and says that he never knew her at all. He doesn't care and continues to piss her off. Then Spike dies (the circumstances of his death are not disclosed) and Buffy tell Angel that she hates Spike even after his death. Then Buffy dies (the circumstances of her death are not disclosed either) and joins Xander and Willow in their dimension. Period, end of the story.

So, the writer didn't need souled Spike as a bad guy to build up another character or to move the plot forward. The writer just wanted to portray souled Spike as a bad person, period.

I think you definitely should. I really don't read non-Spike fiction, but I believe that those hate-a-character fics are not the norm.

The Spike haters out there will always be out there. Some people have never forgiven Joss for the way Chosen and NFA ended because they believe that they were entitled to a "happy ever after" for Angel and Buffy. And because they didn't get that, it somehow became Spike's fault, which, IMO, speaks a lot more to their own issues than dissing a fictional character.
I'm sure there's tons of Angel hating tales, Willow hating tales, Buffy hating tales, Xander hating tales, etc.
Best to ignore them and remember all the really good writers out there who aren't interested in trashing one character for the sake of another.

прочла краткое описание обсуждаемого фика. какой-то бред. бросьте читать пакости всякие, васкез, и не забивайте голову. лучше перечитайте что-нибудь из старого доброго, а еще лучше напишите свой собственный фик с таким спайком, каким сами его видите или хотите видеть. авторша, похоже, просто неудовлетворена всем в этой жизни и к тому же завистлива. вот и пытается привлечь к себе внимание подобным низкопробным способом. знаете, мне к случаю вспоминается фанское письмо в один из номеров журнала баффи оффисиал. содержание приблизительно следующее: "дорогая редакция, не понимаю, почему все так любят спайка? я вот его ненавижу. так ненавижу, что создала на эту тему сайт и пишу вам об этом." по-моему, ситуация - обхохочешься))

You're right, Petzi. I'll try to be positive. And writing down my thoughts and reading comments is therapeutical indeed. I think now I can forget about it.

так ненавижу, что создала на эту тему сайт и пишу вам об этом

:)))

Вот-вот, у дамы, по-моему та же ситуация. Баффи у нее общается в основном со Спайком. Или рассказывает Ангелу, как она ненавидит Спайка. Черт меня дернул это читать. Там начало интригующее: Ксандер и Уиллоу оказываются в каком-то странном измерении, где все как на Земле, только людей нет. Двое в огромном пустом мире. Сама идея о людях, которые остаются наедине с собой, показалась мне интересной, я думала, из этого будут сделаны какие-то необычные выводы. Но глубоко ошиблась.
А свой фик я сейчас пишу, но никак не допишу, потому что мне кажется, что я жестокосердая садистка, которая любит издеваться над бедными героями. :)) А самое ужасное - что, любя, я не могу их не мучить! :))

Кстати: сегодня разговаривала с Саби, она предлагает в воскресенье устроить очередные посиделки. К пятнице прояснится, я тогда тебе отпишу.

пишешь фик? *с надеждой* спаффи? :))

с удовольствием выберусь) если чего прихватить надо будет, пиши.

А "пестики и тычинки" именно из этого нового фика????? Я уже неделю на них в засаде сижу!:)))
С моей бурной фантазией это боооольшааая наряжёнка - нельзя было так дразнить!Да ещё и картинки показывать;)

спаффи? :))

Естессно. :)) Хотя без слэшного подтекста уже не получается. Джосс нас испортил! :)

ОК, как определимся с посиделками - напишу.

А "пестики и тычинки" именно из этого нового фика?????

Угу. Я потихоньку превращаюсь в извращенку! :)) Что поделать - Джоссверс, товарищи! Собственно говоря, именно эта картинка в книге Уэсли меня и вдохновила...

I read that story as well. For the one and only time in my life I wrote a negative review. I thought the story was completely out of character, especially for Buffy. She wrote Buffy as a horrible, unrecognizable person. It was awful. Real Buffy has her faults but her Buffy was insane!

In the end I went back and erased my review, I just couldn't bring myself to be negative in a review. It's like telling someone that their baby is ugly, its just something I can't do. But I came close.

I agree. I often ask myself if I should write in feedback about things I disliked and come to conclusion that I shouldn't. But, OTOH, when writer read only positive feedback he naturally assumes that he shouldn't try to improve his writing because he writes great stories. *shrugs* It's a double-edged sword I suppose. BtVS fanfiction is so rich and there are so well-written stories that they can be judged by professional writing standards - and deemed good literature. But, of course there is a lot of badly written pieces with heroes wildly out-of-character to feed writer's whimsy.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only